So far the offense has performed better with Jackson than with Finley. If you remove the two interceptions against Auburn that are dinging Jackson's record but are not really impactful turnovers (both desperation heaves at the end of the half), then Jackson has been CLEARLY better. Not sure why there is even a debate right now.
I'm confident there's talent in the oline room - but the other thing you have is a lack of trust especially with some of the new guys ... a lot of talent sitting while those "with experience" can't open holes or provide the necessary time throw
I'll add this ... Cal has ONE (1) OL commit for the upcoming class??? and ZERO offers to noncommitted players - you're right, no player development ... that's not Wilcox's plan - it's plug and play ... and well we see how that's worked out so far for Cal. This ain't PRIME TIME and if you don't develop the good ones will leave ...
The second was not a desperation heave. He had an underneath WR open to move the chains and get another shot at it. Point still stands though, Jackson is better. Finley has a gunslinger mentality but not the arm to match. Going through progressions is great but doesn't matter if you just end up throwing ducks to a double covered WR.
But from my memory it was not a particularly difficult throw in a game deciding moment. Even if both an INT and an incomplete pass have the same outcome, some plays are higher leverage/more important than others. We were down 4, in the red zone with 2 minutes left. I think Garbers and Plummer both make that play.
Give Jackson all the snaps. Never really understood the Finley hype, played well against a terrible North Texas defense. It is clear the O-Line isn't good enough to protect Finley which will lead to him being scared and making terrible throws. With Jackson he at least has the athleticism to function better with the current O-Line. Also as has been said a lot if Jackson can develop and figure it out he will be much better than Finley could ever hope, so he should get ever snap you can possibly give him. Wilcox also needs to focus on defense only, after 7 seasons it is clear whatever involvement he has had on three different coordinators offenses the results are terrible. Give Spavital full control of the offense and see what happens.
I agree with this. Finley may perform well with time, but the O line isn't providing that. Jackson can create despite this deficiency, so the circumstances seem to warrant SJV even if Finley would be a better fit with a better O line.
Saturday night's Washington game continued a disturbing pattern of Cal not being able to run the ball against good teams. For some reference, Jadyn Ott had 14 carries for 40 yards. And these are Ott's rushing totals last year against teams that bottled up Cal's offense. UCLA, 55 yards; Oregon State, 20 yards; USC, 50 yards, Oregon, 57 yards, Washington, 38 yards, Notre Dame, 33 yards.
Spav's offense, Musgrave's offense....it don't matter. If you can't run the ball and make teams respect the play action, your quarterback play is marginalized. And if you cannot establish a deep threat, teams are going to stack the box and take away the running game. Cal's offense was a fairly simple thing to scheme last year, and it appears to be the same this year. Sigh.....
SJV's inability to consistently make downfield passes negates his mobility. If the opposing defenses know he struggles in the downfield passing game then why wouldn't they stack the box and take away every other aspect of the Cal offense?
Agree. It seems Finley is a better fit for Spav's offense (whatever that actually is at this point), but probably doesn't have what it takes against good defenses, re: the bad int's.
And its not just a matter of picking a QB but an entire philosophy/identity and game planning to fit the strengths of whoever is running it.
Just the basic fact that going into Fall camp you had a competition between 2 QB's with completely different styles is telling.. Then mid-season, let alone mid-week against a top ranked opponent? Complete dis-assed-her.
Not very at all, but I believe he had a better offensive line and he certainly was a more polished player than either of the guys on our roster. He was a grad transfer
alternate possibility: Wilcox knows that he and Spav are safe through '24, and are treating this year as building for success in the much weaker ACC. Jackson has the higher ceiling, but against Idaho is still only checking his first read and taking off running if it's not there. That is not going to work long term, so Spavcox bench him so that he learns, and start Finley - who tries to run the offense the way it's meant to be run - in the essentially unwinable game in Seattle.
It'll be interesting to see who starts against ASU, and if it's Jackson, to see if he makes progress in going through his reads rather than taking off running at the first sign of trouble.
Are we not 5-years beyond surmising that Wilcox is a genius program builder with a cunning plan for success next year? The best homemade Cal t-shirt I've ever seen reads:
My wife made me a Cal shirt that says If…Then…We Might…on the back because I always give her that 3 step plan on how Cal can be good, and I do it every year.
This makes sense too, let Jackson watch and learn. Finley reading the progressions, but not making the throws. If SJV can make the throws, but not get through progressions, there is a world in which he can watch and learn from the sideline.
OK.. IF THE MAIN REASON CAL JUST MUST CONTINUE TO LOSE IS THE SUPERIORITY OF THE OPPOSITIONS QBS THEN, IT BECOMES OBVIOUS WE MUST PROVIDE SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVED MEANS TO REDUCE SAID MALADIES BY PROVIDING STRONGER ATTACKS ON SAID QB THREATS. MORE ACTUAL SACS, OR, AT LEAST, MORE QB HARASSSMENT IS CALLED FOR NOW, MORE THAN EVER. GO GET 'EM BEARS!! GERBEAR
Yes, yes, yes! Every one is commenting on the Offense and our QB malaise but few on the defense. Our D is so generic. So little pure pressure on opposing QB's on obvious downs where long passing yards are needed by the opponent. No, we go to a 3 or 4 man rush which gives the QB extra time in the pocket.
Unwatchable... We're down 14 before you can blink. We're down 21-6 and get a pick in u-dub territory, YAY! Happy times... which lasted for six seconds when Finley tosses his second pick. This team is so self-deflating, it's really incredible. Washington was always going to win this game, fine, but to be so utterly unable to be competent losers? Even if Wilcox suddenly became a competent coach starting today, it doesn't matter. No recruit in his right mind should have any confidence that a Wilcox lead program will get them anywhere -- no national visibility, no chance at the pros (DBs excluded), nothing but a couple FCS wins and obliteration by even middling programs. Living on the East Coast, at least now I know I don't have to stay up until 10:30 to watch more doooooooom. So let anyone play QB, pull a kicker from intramural soccer, and Go Bears!
I don't follow QB development to truly see how Jackson isn't measuring up, other than he's a bit small to be taking on larger defenders in the open field and expecting to win battles. That was one area that McIlwain excelled, provided he held on to the ball after he collided with a linebacker.
As such, I wasn't too bothered that Jackson wasn't initially offered up as the human sacrifice to the Husky defense. I feel like they would have broken him in half.
If Wilcox wasn't feeling pressure to turn around the program's trajectory, I'd guess that Jackson would be allowed to run with the job and we'd have to experience the kid's growing pains and understand that it may not be a linear progression towards improvement.
It's also possible, for older Bears who remember, we could be watching the second coming of Brian Bedford, one of Joe Kapp's QB recruits in the mid-1980s who never developed and ultimately ended his Cal career exiled to WR.
But knowing his job may well be on the line, Wilcox is rolling the dice to catch lightning in a bottle. As a result, we're getting this roller coaster.
The tragedy of Brian Bedford is that we never were going to learn his true level of ability because post-The Play Joe Kapp was leading a revolving door of position coaches on his staff, and clearly had no one able to help develop Bedford. As such, who is tasked with coaching up Jackson? Is Spav handling that? As a result, are we seeing the true limitations of Spav's coaching ability, in that he can work wonders with a nearly finished product like Davis Webb but can't do the same with the raw material Jackson has?
I hate to say it, given that he's no Davis Webb, but if that's the case, we truly screwed up in not working harder to keep Jack Plummer,,,
Good. Then I'm hoping he's working that magic with Jackson right now. It's too bad we're having to watch that development happen in real time with an HC who can afford the kid little patience.
I believe SJV is the guy the coaching staff wants to start. I think he was dealing with a shoulder injury from the North Texas game which prevented him from starting at UW. Since Wilcox foes not disclose injury information, this is speculation. But notice how his first series filling in for Finley was nothing but handoffs to the running back... I think the hope was to let SJV hand the ball off and put Finley back in. With Finley unable to return SJV was allowed to open up his game. If there truly was a QB battle, Finley would have been pulled after the 1st interception.
1.2 million people watched the Cal - Washington game and saw the first few minutes. Hard to deal with the level of dysfunction on the national stage. Hopefully we'll get it worked out by the next ESPN or Fox broadcast featuring Cal.
It seems like we might have a full-on QB controversy now. I am not sure why the coaches are so indecisive. Other sites are even calling for Mendoza to get a crack at the starting job. Pick one and go with it, or publicly declare that you'll rotate QBs during the game.
I can see it......Justin A. "They've lined up for the FG 2 seconds remaining, ready for the snap,....oh, the Bears look confused, they are running in substitutes.....the snap, kick.....its its, good, a 48 yard FG"
That could easily be the Rose Bowl matchup if UW stumbles against Oregon or in the conference championship game, and if tOSU beats one of PSU or Michigan but loses to the other.
"Ohio State quarterbacking has got to get better." Uhhh...no it doesn't. Ohio State can suck it and I hope their whole program tanks hard and loses its appeal. I say the same for any program not named Cal.
That's a Washington thing though. They have the best WR room in the country. Jeremiah Hunter would be the number 1 or 2 guy at basically every other Pac school.
Yeah, I’ll be curious to see just how good the Huskies are this year and whether that was the primary factor in the beat down they gave us (rather than the Bears just not being very good).
I think the Huskies are the real deal this year. They will be in the finals. The Bears are not very good, with occasional great moments of what they could be. Which is tough, because most of the Pac 12 is pretty good most all game long.
So far the offense has performed better with Jackson than with Finley. If you remove the two interceptions against Auburn that are dinging Jackson's record but are not really impactful turnovers (both desperation heaves at the end of the half), then Jackson has been CLEARLY better. Not sure why there is even a debate right now.
Yeah also without Cindric I think we need a more mobile QB, as we just don’t have the pass protection to allow Finley to succeed
I'm confident there's talent in the oline room - but the other thing you have is a lack of trust especially with some of the new guys ... a lot of talent sitting while those "with experience" can't open holes or provide the necessary time throw
I'll add this ... Cal has ONE (1) OL commit for the upcoming class??? and ZERO offers to noncommitted players - you're right, no player development ... that's not Wilcox's plan - it's plug and play ... and well we see how that's worked out so far for Cal. This ain't PRIME TIME and if you don't develop the good ones will leave ...
The second was not a desperation heave. He had an underneath WR open to move the chains and get another shot at it. Point still stands though, Jackson is better. Finley has a gunslinger mentality but not the arm to match. Going through progressions is great but doesn't matter if you just end up throwing ducks to a double covered WR.
I suppose, but my point is that as interceptions go it was no more damaging than an incomplete pass.
But from my memory it was not a particularly difficult throw in a game deciding moment. Even if both an INT and an incomplete pass have the same outcome, some plays are higher leverage/more important than others. We were down 4, in the red zone with 2 minutes left. I think Garbers and Plummer both make that play.
He was heavily pressured on 4th and 13. Without bringing up qb’s who no longer are on the squad, do you think Finley makes that play?
Give Jackson all the snaps. Never really understood the Finley hype, played well against a terrible North Texas defense. It is clear the O-Line isn't good enough to protect Finley which will lead to him being scared and making terrible throws. With Jackson he at least has the athleticism to function better with the current O-Line. Also as has been said a lot if Jackson can develop and figure it out he will be much better than Finley could ever hope, so he should get ever snap you can possibly give him. Wilcox also needs to focus on defense only, after 7 seasons it is clear whatever involvement he has had on three different coordinators offenses the results are terrible. Give Spavital full control of the offense and see what happens.
I agree with this. Finley may perform well with time, but the O line isn't providing that. Jackson can create despite this deficiency, so the circumstances seem to warrant SJV even if Finley would be a better fit with a better O line.
Saturday night's Washington game continued a disturbing pattern of Cal not being able to run the ball against good teams. For some reference, Jadyn Ott had 14 carries for 40 yards. And these are Ott's rushing totals last year against teams that bottled up Cal's offense. UCLA, 55 yards; Oregon State, 20 yards; USC, 50 yards, Oregon, 57 yards, Washington, 38 yards, Notre Dame, 33 yards.
Spav's offense, Musgrave's offense....it don't matter. If you can't run the ball and make teams respect the play action, your quarterback play is marginalized. And if you cannot establish a deep threat, teams are going to stack the box and take away the running game. Cal's offense was a fairly simple thing to scheme last year, and it appears to be the same this year. Sigh.....
Oline didn’t really get better
Part of the problem is passing game is not consistent, so opponents can stack the box and stop the run.
SJV's inability to consistently make downfield passes negates his mobility. If the opposing defenses know he struggles in the downfield passing game then why wouldn't they stack the box and take away every other aspect of the Cal offense?
Agree. It seems Finley is a better fit for Spav's offense (whatever that actually is at this point), but probably doesn't have what it takes against good defenses, re: the bad int's.
And its not just a matter of picking a QB but an entire philosophy/identity and game planning to fit the strengths of whoever is running it.
Just the basic fact that going into Fall camp you had a competition between 2 QB's with completely different styles is telling.. Then mid-season, let alone mid-week against a top ranked opponent? Complete dis-assed-her.
Spav has coached up and worked with mobile QBs quite well in the past, so I don't think Finley is necessarily "a better fit"
How mobile was Davis Webb?
Not very at all, but I believe he had a better offensive line and he certainly was a more polished player than either of the guys on our roster. He was a grad transfer
And the PAC 12 was a lot weaker then.
alternate possibility: Wilcox knows that he and Spav are safe through '24, and are treating this year as building for success in the much weaker ACC. Jackson has the higher ceiling, but against Idaho is still only checking his first read and taking off running if it's not there. That is not going to work long term, so Spavcox bench him so that he learns, and start Finley - who tries to run the offense the way it's meant to be run - in the essentially unwinable game in Seattle.
It'll be interesting to see who starts against ASU, and if it's Jackson, to see if he makes progress in going through his reads rather than taking off running at the first sign of trouble.
we must start referring to them as Spavcox from now on
as an author you can make it happen
i have POWER now
https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/018/459/53697461.jpg
Give me running at the first sign of trouble over getting happy feet in the pocket and throwing it to the nearest defender.
Are we not 5-years beyond surmising that Wilcox is a genius program builder with a cunning plan for success next year? The best homemade Cal t-shirt I've ever seen reads:
"We're going to be so good next year."
My wife made me a Cal shirt that says If…Then…We Might…on the back because I always give her that 3 step plan on how Cal can be good, and I do it every year.
This is good. Really good.
"Free beer, tomorrow."
This makes sense too, let Jackson watch and learn. Finley reading the progressions, but not making the throws. If SJV can make the throws, but not get through progressions, there is a world in which he can watch and learn from the sideline.
OK.. IF THE MAIN REASON CAL JUST MUST CONTINUE TO LOSE IS THE SUPERIORITY OF THE OPPOSITIONS QBS THEN, IT BECOMES OBVIOUS WE MUST PROVIDE SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVED MEANS TO REDUCE SAID MALADIES BY PROVIDING STRONGER ATTACKS ON SAID QB THREATS. MORE ACTUAL SACS, OR, AT LEAST, MORE QB HARASSSMENT IS CALLED FOR NOW, MORE THAN EVER. GO GET 'EM BEARS!! GERBEAR
Yes, yes, yes! Every one is commenting on the Offense and our QB malaise but few on the defense. Our D is so generic. So little pure pressure on opposing QB's on obvious downs where long passing yards are needed by the opponent. No, we go to a 3 or 4 man rush which gives the QB extra time in the pocket.
GO!
BEARS!
I'd say the floor is higher with Jackson. When he's in there the offense often stalls but it doesn't self-destruct.
Unwatchable... We're down 14 before you can blink. We're down 21-6 and get a pick in u-dub territory, YAY! Happy times... which lasted for six seconds when Finley tosses his second pick. This team is so self-deflating, it's really incredible. Washington was always going to win this game, fine, but to be so utterly unable to be competent losers? Even if Wilcox suddenly became a competent coach starting today, it doesn't matter. No recruit in his right mind should have any confidence that a Wilcox lead program will get them anywhere -- no national visibility, no chance at the pros (DBs excluded), nothing but a couple FCS wins and obliteration by even middling programs. Living on the East Coast, at least now I know I don't have to stay up until 10:30 to watch more doooooooom. So let anyone play QB, pull a kicker from intramural soccer, and Go Bears!
North Texas is FBS. Just sayin.'
It's not a battle, but rather a "self-elimination" process with the "least-worst performer" emerging as the winner.
I don't follow QB development to truly see how Jackson isn't measuring up, other than he's a bit small to be taking on larger defenders in the open field and expecting to win battles. That was one area that McIlwain excelled, provided he held on to the ball after he collided with a linebacker.
As such, I wasn't too bothered that Jackson wasn't initially offered up as the human sacrifice to the Husky defense. I feel like they would have broken him in half.
So, in Star Trek terms, Finley is our redshirt.
I get it.
If Wilcox wasn't feeling pressure to turn around the program's trajectory, I'd guess that Jackson would be allowed to run with the job and we'd have to experience the kid's growing pains and understand that it may not be a linear progression towards improvement.
It's also possible, for older Bears who remember, we could be watching the second coming of Brian Bedford, one of Joe Kapp's QB recruits in the mid-1980s who never developed and ultimately ended his Cal career exiled to WR.
But knowing his job may well be on the line, Wilcox is rolling the dice to catch lightning in a bottle. As a result, we're getting this roller coaster.
Rather apt analogy, Auricursine. 4 wins seems to be the upper bounds on this season.
The tragedy of Brian Bedford is that we never were going to learn his true level of ability because post-The Play Joe Kapp was leading a revolving door of position coaches on his staff, and clearly had no one able to help develop Bedford. As such, who is tasked with coaching up Jackson? Is Spav handling that? As a result, are we seeing the true limitations of Spav's coaching ability, in that he can work wonders with a nearly finished product like Davis Webb but can't do the same with the raw material Jackson has?
I hate to say it, given that he's no Davis Webb, but if that's the case, we truly screwed up in not working harder to keep Jack Plummer,,,
Spav has coached up more QBs than Webb, including some guys that weren't polished when he started off.
Good. Then I'm hoping he's working that magic with Jackson right now. It's too bad we're having to watch that development happen in real time with an HC who can afford the kid little patience.
You mean like Johnny Manziel who basically was un-coachable?
Kyle Allen and Kenny Hill were both first-time starters. Was also QB coach for Geno Smith at West Virginia in 2011-12 and for Will Grier after he transferred from Florida to West Virginia in 2017 https://calbears.com/sports/football/roster/coaches/jake-spavital/5626
I believe SJV is the guy the coaching staff wants to start. I think he was dealing with a shoulder injury from the North Texas game which prevented him from starting at UW. Since Wilcox foes not disclose injury information, this is speculation. But notice how his first series filling in for Finley was nothing but handoffs to the running back... I think the hope was to let SJV hand the ball off and put Finley back in. With Finley unable to return SJV was allowed to open up his game. If there truly was a QB battle, Finley would have been pulled after the 1st interception.
IIRC, the second interception was indefensible and SJV needed to come in after that. But we waited for a third and more.
Correction: I think SJV was hurt vs Idaho, not North Texas
He was originally hurt against North Texas (left shoulder) and has been wearing a brace ever since
1.2 million people watched the Cal - Washington game and saw the first few minutes. Hard to deal with the level of dysfunction on the national stage. Hopefully we'll get it worked out by the next ESPN or Fox broadcast featuring Cal.
It seems like we might have a full-on QB controversy now. I am not sure why the coaches are so indecisive. Other sites are even calling for Mendoza to get a crack at the starting job. Pick one and go with it, or publicly declare that you'll rotate QBs during the game.
Mendoza would have to be a "Purdyesque" surprise to contend in the QB competition.
Good idea, pick one and go with him, preferably Jackson. Then go fix the special team's mess.
Off topic, but here's a fun fact:
Guess who is the kicker for ASU?
Here's his stats:
https://www.espn.com/college-football/player/_/id/4372718/dario-longhetto
I want him back badly
And their special teams coordinator
As I recall.
ST has been problematic throughout the Wilcox era. Was Ragle better?
Better than no one/So'oto
True enough.
Looks like we have a new starting PK this week.
Don't forget he missed a good share of FGs and one or two PATs.
He sure did.
Dammit.
I can see it......Justin A. "They've lined up for the FG 2 seconds remaining, ready for the snap,....oh, the Bears look confused, they are running in substitutes.....the snap, kick.....its its, good, a 48 yard FG"
Yeah, it comes down to a burned former Bear.
That could easily be the Rose Bowl matchup if UW stumbles against Oregon or in the conference championship game, and if tOSU beats one of PSU or Michigan but loses to the other.
Wait. ARE YOU LOU HOLTZ??? WHERE ARE YOU RIGHT NOW?
ha, agree. I was referencing Ryan Day's recent post game histrionics re: Lou Holtz.
Still, I'm all for throwing shade on tOSU.
"Ohio State quarterbacking has got to get better." Uhhh...no it doesn't. Ohio State can suck it and I hope their whole program tanks hard and loses its appeal. I say the same for any program not named Cal.
^^This!!
"Ohio State is real good, too."
Unfortunately, we must either become Ohio State or an FCS Ivy League West team.
That's a Washington thing though. They have the best WR room in the country. Jeremiah Hunter would be the number 1 or 2 guy at basically every other Pac school.
It'd be nice to have Sturdivant back. The two of them might raise more Hell, but Grizzell, too, has been an awesome surprise.
Yeah, I’ll be curious to see just how good the Huskies are this year and whether that was the primary factor in the beat down they gave us (rather than the Bears just not being very good).
I think the Huskies are the real deal this year. They will be in the finals. The Bears are not very good, with occasional great moments of what they could be. Which is tough, because most of the Pac 12 is pretty good most all game long.
It’s almost like our team needs to double up on practices.