For a solid two years now we've been watching Mark Fox try and fail to recruit a point guard, knowing that Cal would be in deep trouble without Joel Brown, who has his offensive limitations but can initiate the offense and handle the ball.
Sure, bringing in combo guards isn't the worst thing in the world, and I'm glad Hyder and Shepperd are on the roster. But point guard has been a massive recruiting failure for the current coaching staff and today was in part a consequence of that.
Didn't watch the game because I went to finally go see Spiderman (looks like that decision paid off) but does look like there was a collapse on offense mixed with a lack of rebounding and the refs bending over backwards for UW. Without Joel Brown this would be tough stability wise but I am still of the opinion that they should have pulled this one out.
I can’t help but respond to some of the juicy points being made.
Overall my impressions this season had been that the days of crappy pac10/12 refereeing were behind us. I guess I am mistaken. That was like a bad nightmare. Last night was a reminder of how refs can alter and disrupt a teams performance.
That said we did not lose the game because of the refs. With the right personnel and all five players dialed in that zone is like no other. A lot teams struggle against it especially if you don’t see it very often. Having Joel Brown would have definitely helped. I have a faint recollection of a strong (ok maybe a good) Cal team being destroyed by Syracuse in the NCAA tourney in the not too distant past.
We caught UW as they for some reason have started playing together over the past two weeks.
I look at the Foul in question as a critical teaching moment for KK. The old days of clearing space using your elbows are long gone. Yes you keep your elbows up but pivoting away from pressure and using your butt to discourage opponents from hanging around is more the norm.
The positioning of the Cal player in the backcourt with Kuany was weak as well. Seeing the Kuany had company that player could have circled underneath and taken a handoff and let Kuany clear out.
It was exciting to see Alajiki make a return. He needs more minutes!!
And a rare sighting of Roberson. Why did he only play a couple minutes?
I think you're right. refs made a good call because 2K's arms were more horizontal than vertical (another way to say the same thing as the rule that was in the NCAA video)
the issue is not whether Kuany elbowed him or not. It looked like he did and it was more than a graze (i.e. I don't think it was a flop)
the issue is the defender was in his 'cylinder' which did not allow 2K to make a 'basketball move'
2K got the rebound with the defender completely in his cylinder. 2K spun around with two hands on the ball to immediately make a pass. That is the right basketball move in that situation
but refs hardly ever call the cylinder rule, and with the focus on player safety
I don't agree with the call, but I understand it
Too bad because it was a 1 point game with 5 minutes left, and that play was the turning point
While he did make a pass shortly after making contact, I dont think the slow motion replay shows he was clearly making a "basketball move", but can be interpreted as him first trying to secure the ball and clear space with his elbows before making the pass.
So the problem might be with slow motion itself, and the fact that this kind of play is even reviewable. Slow-mo distorts the reality of the event and introduces the biases of the viewer in terms of what they think the player was trying to do (which occurred in only a split second to that player).
If they didnt call it immediately they shouldnt have called it. Or at least it would be nice if they were only allowed to watch the replay at full speed.
In the rule book its called "a normal basketball play" and is defined as "attempting to shoot, pass, or begin a dribble."
The cylinder rule comes into play here, and the two questions are 1. was he making a "normal basketball play," and 2. even if so, was the elbow swinging "excessive"?
one thing in this video, is the offensive player arms were more vertical than horizontal, which wasn't the case with 2K (not sure how much that matters):
Yeah, I think these player safety rules are meant to deter reckless actions as much or more than malicious actions. Somewhat similar to targeting in football. In basketball if the offensive player's elbows are above their shoulders when they swing around they're going to get called on contact regardless of the "cylinder". The technicality of the ref's call and severity of the penalty is where the subjectivity comes into play.
Thanks. I don't believe it was intentional or flagrant or even a foul. The guy was up in his face, and every player worries of the ball being stripped and so they turn quickly and try to avoid getting the ball swiped. What else was he supposed to do? They took a long time debating the call because even the refs could not agree. It was a game changing bad call on top of the whole game of not calling UW for fouls on Cal players.
For a solid two years now we've been watching Mark Fox try and fail to recruit a point guard, knowing that Cal would be in deep trouble without Joel Brown, who has his offensive limitations but can initiate the offense and handle the ball.
Sure, bringing in combo guards isn't the worst thing in the world, and I'm glad Hyder and Shepperd are on the roster. But point guard has been a massive recruiting failure for the current coaching staff and today was in part a consequence of that.
Yes, THIS.
Didn't watch the game because I went to finally go see Spiderman (looks like that decision paid off) but does look like there was a collapse on offense mixed with a lack of rebounding and the refs bending over backwards for UW. Without Joel Brown this would be tough stability wise but I am still of the opinion that they should have pulled this one out.
I can’t help but respond to some of the juicy points being made.
Overall my impressions this season had been that the days of crappy pac10/12 refereeing were behind us. I guess I am mistaken. That was like a bad nightmare. Last night was a reminder of how refs can alter and disrupt a teams performance.
That said we did not lose the game because of the refs. With the right personnel and all five players dialed in that zone is like no other. A lot teams struggle against it especially if you don’t see it very often. Having Joel Brown would have definitely helped. I have a faint recollection of a strong (ok maybe a good) Cal team being destroyed by Syracuse in the NCAA tourney in the not too distant past.
We caught UW as they for some reason have started playing together over the past two weeks.
I look at the Foul in question as a critical teaching moment for KK. The old days of clearing space using your elbows are long gone. Yes you keep your elbows up but pivoting away from pressure and using your butt to discourage opponents from hanging around is more the norm.
The positioning of the Cal player in the backcourt with Kuany was weak as well. Seeing the Kuany had company that player could have circled underneath and taken a handoff and let Kuany clear out.
It was exciting to see Alajiki make a return. He needs more minutes!!
And a rare sighting of Roberson. Why did he only play a couple minutes?
Actually we beat Syracuse in an away game, but it wasn’t a ncaa tournament game
Screwed by the refs; truly a Pac-12 tradition.
I think you're right. refs made a good call because 2K's arms were more horizontal than vertical (another way to say the same thing as the rule that was in the NCAA video)
thx for the link. I replayed it in 25% speed.
the issue is not whether Kuany elbowed him or not. It looked like he did and it was more than a graze (i.e. I don't think it was a flop)
the issue is the defender was in his 'cylinder' which did not allow 2K to make a 'basketball move'
2K got the rebound with the defender completely in his cylinder. 2K spun around with two hands on the ball to immediately make a pass. That is the right basketball move in that situation
but refs hardly ever call the cylinder rule, and with the focus on player safety
I don't agree with the call, but I understand it
Too bad because it was a 1 point game with 5 minutes left, and that play was the turning point
While he did make a pass shortly after making contact, I dont think the slow motion replay shows he was clearly making a "basketball move", but can be interpreted as him first trying to secure the ball and clear space with his elbows before making the pass.
So the problem might be with slow motion itself, and the fact that this kind of play is even reviewable. Slow-mo distorts the reality of the event and introduces the biases of the viewer in terms of what they think the player was trying to do (which occurred in only a split second to that player).
If they didnt call it immediately they shouldnt have called it. Or at least it would be nice if they were only allowed to watch the replay at full speed.
Bob, I’ll send a video of the rule later tonight…hold on tight!
In the rule book its called "a normal basketball play" and is defined as "attempting to shoot, pass, or begin a dribble."
The cylinder rule comes into play here, and the two questions are 1. was he making a "normal basketball play," and 2. even if so, was the elbow swinging "excessive"?
https://www1.arbitersports.com/Groups/109473/Library/files/Rules_Clarifications_and_Play_Situations_11116.pdf
And.. I wouldnt doubt there are other rules that could come into play one way or the other..
one thing in this video, is the offensive player arms were more vertical than horizontal, which wasn't the case with 2K (not sure how much that matters):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqfF34-f5V8
here is part 2 of the video. I don't think this relates to the 2K call, but I'm pretty sure UW violated this rule on some of their traps:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STHXdwZwDY4
The refs have made it pretty clear over the years that ANY contact to the head is going to be at least a flagrant 1.
There is absolutely nothing KK could’ve really done different, tho.
It’s a bad rule. The flagrant 2 makes more sense tho.
Yeah, I think these player safety rules are meant to deter reckless actions as much or more than malicious actions. Somewhat similar to targeting in football. In basketball if the offensive player's elbows are above their shoulders when they swing around they're going to get called on contact regardless of the "cylinder". The technicality of the ref's call and severity of the penalty is where the subjectivity comes into play.
Thanks. I don't believe it was intentional or flagrant or even a foul. The guy was up in his face, and every player worries of the ball being stripped and so they turn quickly and try to avoid getting the ball swiped. What else was he supposed to do? They took a long time debating the call because even the refs could not agree. It was a game changing bad call on top of the whole game of not calling UW for fouls on Cal players.