I'll be live on the LockerRoom App at 6PM PT to talk about the Matt Bradley departure. Hop in and ask to talk! I wanna hear everyones opinions and discuss! See you all then!
Not at all surprising at all. I wish Matt the best. Honestly, I've been following Cal basketball my whole life. I went to Cal. My dad went to Cal. In all honestly, if I had a son who was prospect (and surprise, I don't!), I don't think I could in good conscience steer him to this program. We're on Pluto and there does not seem to be any plan or sense of urgency or concern within the administration to pull us back towards earth. Fox is not a bad coach and certainly not a bad person, but it is just a bad fit. I don't want to disparage him, but you couldn't watch that insufferable introduction he gave to the team and not feel your stomach get tight. You could see where the ship was headed.
Makes sense. Cal has zero chance of making any noise next season, with or without Bradley. He could have bailed along with the others when Fox was hired, but stayed to honor his commitment and help/hope to build a program. Fox's coaching has been fine, but the supporting cast is just not arriving, so I think he's justified in making this change, especially if the one-time transfer exception still applies. I assume he has identified playoff-ready schools that have a slot for a burly scoring guard. Plus, if NIL passes in August, and he goes to a place where college athletes are placed on pedestals, or a larger market (LA if PAC-12) he could stand to make some beer money. And, it'll be his last chance to bask in the March Madness spotlight.
Well, it's finally out in the open, and should come as no surprise to anyone. Word is it's another P12 school, tho, which will sorta hurt. But you really can't blame Matt...let him get some NCAA Tournament run, as Cal is going to struggle immensely next year with or without him.
This actually may not be the worst thing, as it opens up playing time for Kuany, Bowser, Celestine, and the incoming FR Roberson and Alujaki...developing some of their own recruits is the only thing that is going to get this ship righted, though it's unlikely Fox and Co. are the men to do it.
Arguably Cal played their best stretch of basketball when he was hurt in terms of the team aspect especially on offense so lets see if they can keep it up for longer stretches.
I see a few on this board putting Bradley leaving and/or Cal's general season woes on Fox, and I think that's too easy and simplistic. No one seems to acknowledge that Cal is the most desirable undesirable [sic] gig in D-1 hoops. It has a primo location and academic reputation, but how many aspiring NBA stars put those at the top of their lists? We're not a 'basketball school', have fluctuating administrative support, lack facilities, and have higher entrance requirements than almost every school offering D-1 scholarships. Lots of headwinds. We landed Fox, a fully competent coach, because he had been fired, had taken a year off, was under the radar, probably didn't realize what Bay Area housing costs were, and had no better offers. So, Cal could get him at a bargain rate, offering the 2nd lowest salary in the PAC-12. No way Cal would hire a Mick Cronin at $5M per. And Cal won't touch a coach with a checkered past, and Fox was as clean as they come. Only alternative would have been to roll the dice on a young up-and-comer who's willing to take on the challenge. Who's to say DeCuire would have even taken the job? And there's no guarantee he'd enjoy the same success at Cal has he's had at Montana, and he probably realizes that (see Mark Few). Cal had the opportunity to go for a known quantity vs a swing for the fences. They chose to go conservative, right the ship, stabilize the program. Now, how to attract recruits? Because I don't see our coach/savior anywhere on the horizon.
Yeah not buying that. Haha there’s a reason Decuire interviewed for the job TWICE. I don’t think he’s the hire but there were better gambles out there than a coach that no one wanted to hire for a full year.
Nick's review of the hire at the time would probably equate to an 85% on Rotten Tomatoes. His record on academics (a Cal must) and coaching defenses, and past successes (mostly at Nevada), and price tag when Cal was heavily in the red all contributed to his hire. He had negatives of course (offense has never been strong point on his teams), but he's grown on me this last year. I was worried about his 'hot head' reputation, and I saw some of that in year 1, but he certainly looks to have mellowed this year. And the attitude of this year's team, and how hard they played for him this season, tells me there's something there.
I am in no way concerned with his "hot head" - it's actually refreshing to see a coach on the sidelines that gets pissed at the shitty calls P12 refs make nightly.
But Fox checked a lot of boxes after the Wyking disaster...unfortunately, those qualities do not lend themself to a full rebuild, at least in a timely fashion.
I think we’re talking about different people. When Nick gets back he can clarify but I think I can speak for him. it wasnt even close to an 85. Or even a 58 hire.
We got him as a bargain because the P5 market for Mark Fox was nil. I've never been in the DeCuire camp, but he DEFINITELY would have taken the job. Barbour was apparently ready to make him an offer when Monty left and he wanted the job bad. Wilton intervened and made the Cuonzo hire above her. I have a hard believing he wouldn't have taken it if offered to succeed Wyking, cause I know he has ambitions beyond Montana, as cozy as that gig might be. I know it seems like a distant memory now, but it was just a few years ago that Cal plucked Cuonzo from Tennessee after he had just taken them to the sweet sixteen. No, we don't have Cronin $, but Cuonzo was a big boy hire at the time. And with the exception of Wyking and now Fox, generally Cal has been more ambitious with MBB hires. Braun had just beat Duke in the tourney. Obviously he never developed a change-up after his early success, but that was a well-calculated gamble. Monty was a slam dunk, no-brainer and I'm sure it came with a hefty price tag. Had Bozeman not taken Cal to the sweet sixteen, I know Bockrath would have preferred to go big game hunting. This current reticence to devalue MBB program is actually a newer development over the past few decades.
I'd say you're probably right, DeCuire would have taken the job, and might now be glad that he didn't have the chance. Fox was sought after in previous years by big name schools, NC State for one, but you and I seem to agree that his stock had fallen as of late (and for the reasons I outlined). That fact doesn't make him unqualified. I disagree with your characterization of Cal's hiring past, though. Of the names I can recall, none struck me as ambitious spending-wise other than Monty (no-brainer) and Cuanzo (successful, young, high character, auspicious timing). Braun & Campanelli would probably be next, but they were elevated from smaller programs, so probably middle PAC salaries at best, and Kuchen (ND assistant), & Bozeman (elevated Cal assistant) were probably on the lower end. I'd say Cal has a history of paying big for 'sure things', but goes on the low end otherwise.
Again, not making the case that we are or ever will be a top of the conference spender, but we have been particularly unimaginative and less spendy of late. Braun wasn't getting Jim Harrick money, but he was a hot hire. Plucking him was roughly equivalent to USC plucking what's his face from Coastal Carolina.
They are all gambles, just some less so than others. With Fox you had a pretty good idea of what he was bringing and that was mediocrity. Mediocrity is not a great selling point to kids, so then you get run the risk of getting something less than that. I'll say this for the Wyking hire, the floor was really low (and boy did we touch it), but there was enough mystery where I guess you could fool yourself that the ceiling was higher than it was. With Fox, there was really no illusion. Chances of Gates makes a ton of sense. Not without risk, but he comes with a ton of upside; pricier now, but not impossibly so; a proven recruiter; and a greater likelihood than most that he might stick around if he does have success.
Over the decades, Few has had multiple opportunities to move on to 'big time' schools. He has always turned them down in favor of his more remote, small town situation where the pressure is far less, and he has more autonomy over his environment. Not directly equivalent to the job at Montana, but a situation with similar attractions.
I actually read a book on Gonzaga basketball, and as I recall, the groundwork for success was already being laid by the then HC and Few's mentor. Long-time assistant Few was groomed, then elevated to HC when his predecessor retired.
The only thing I can think of that is remotely positive is that the team did OK without Bradley in the line-up. Better hope the recruiting improves and we can start getting the McDonalds All-Americans. Probably under some new up and coming genius coach, whomever that might be,
Dennis Gates pulled Cleveland State from the dead rather quickly, Joe Golding at Abliene Christian to a degree, Brad Underwood at Illinois after Self left them for dead for Kansas, Porter Moser to a lesser degree with Loyola essentially putting them from zero to hero, and even just a pinch of Andy Enfield at USC for picking up the ruins off the back end of the OJ Mayo fall out in terms of sanctions.
Right, plenty of coaches have turned around programs quickly. Fox has now been here two years with a prospect of third that is likely to go about roughly the same as the first two. That means 2-3 years with no progress, no recruits, no player development. Has any coach recovered from that? Gates turned his program around WITHIN two years. Other than not being Wyking, Fox hasn't moved the program an inch with still no evident potential for improvement in the near future. All of the coaches you mentioned had at least incremental success to start.
I honestly thought Andy Enfield was going to be fired sometime in the past but it goes to show that patience pays off in some degree. Some coaches who are on Fox levels of pain are Tom Crean at Georgia and Archie Miller (recently fired) at Indiana and even Steve Prohm(fired) Iowa State,programs that just never got afloat. Others approaching this threshold would be Jerry Stackhouse at Vandy, Mike Hopkins at UW, and even Shaka Smart before he left Texas (despite what the record may say, he fell off comapred to his VCU days).
Enfield kept the program stagnant for two years but won 21 games by year three. Fox went backward in his second year and there is no road for him to make a similar jump in year 3. Shaka underdeliverred on expectations but still won 19-20 games nearly every season. Hopkins at least had good success his first season. The rest have lost their jobs. Have any trended down for two years and then inconceivably turned it around? I'm sure there is an example, but I think we all can agree is would defy any expectation at this point.
It's logical to assume that some talented players would be eligible for special admissions at all of these schools (save perhaps Illinois) that Cal couldn't touch. Just two big talents could swing a program, especially if you're playing the schedule of Cleveland St or Abliene Christian.
Bruce Weber was a really good successor to Self. That Deron Williams team that went to the national championship was better than any of Self's Illini teams, but things started trending back down a bit by the second half of his tenure.
Is he going to graduate such that he can play next year, or is he sitting out?
Either way, hard to see this as anything other than a vote of no confidence in Mark Fox. But if he's willing to sit out a full year to play one at another school, that is a pretty significant indictment.
I believe the COVID one-year exemption is still in place (i.e. don't have to sit out a year), and the NCAA is likely to make it permanent for one-time-only transfers.
Ya he’ll be able to play right away. And it’s not so much an indictment of Fox as it is a realistic view of current state of the program, thanks to Mike Williams & Wyking. Fox is what he is...Bradley deserves the shot to taste success, and it ain’t with this Cal program. But the situation Fox inherited was rough.
Well, I'd say we're pretty much at rock bottom, with 3 of past 4 seasons being last place finishes with inept results. I think things will be pretty bleak in '21-'22, but figure we'll start to show signs of life on the defensive end this year, kinda like we did down the stretch. That'll get us on a more upward trajectory, albeit very, very slowly. Fox is not getting us to the Tournament tho. And we're still 4-5 years away - going into hibernation for a decade is rough.
Eh, it's actually pretty surprising to me. I know we were bad, but that was somewhat recalibrated given the success of our pac12 brethren in the tournament. I think this becomes more of an indictment of Mark Fox (unless there are unrelated personal Bradley things at play here).
This has been on the table since mid-season, regardless of Mark Fox, tho he should be under indictment. But this was pretty close to a done-deal since the beginning of the 2021 year.
Oh, didnt know that. Too bad. I didn't know much about Bradley other than his insane talent, but for some reason assumed he was a "Cal guy". To be honest, I was more heart broken when Jordan Matthews transferred out. Granted, I'm hardly a basketball fan but was into the team during that stretch.
I think it’s pretty simple: I’ve got a year or two of eligibility left with minimal pro potential. We’ve been bad for two years and I don’t see this turning around next year, so I might as well try to taste success elsewhere.
Lockerroom: https://t.co/OxfQSUO7Vs?amp=1
I'll be live on the LockerRoom App at 6PM PT to talk about the Matt Bradley departure. Hop in and ask to talk! I wanna hear everyones opinions and discuss! See you all then!
Not at all surprising at all. I wish Matt the best. Honestly, I've been following Cal basketball my whole life. I went to Cal. My dad went to Cal. In all honestly, if I had a son who was prospect (and surprise, I don't!), I don't think I could in good conscience steer him to this program. We're on Pluto and there does not seem to be any plan or sense of urgency or concern within the administration to pull us back towards earth. Fox is not a bad coach and certainly not a bad person, but it is just a bad fit. I don't want to disparage him, but you couldn't watch that insufferable introduction he gave to the team and not feel your stomach get tight. You could see where the ship was headed.
Makes sense. Cal has zero chance of making any noise next season, with or without Bradley. He could have bailed along with the others when Fox was hired, but stayed to honor his commitment and help/hope to build a program. Fox's coaching has been fine, but the supporting cast is just not arriving, so I think he's justified in making this change, especially if the one-time transfer exception still applies. I assume he has identified playoff-ready schools that have a slot for a burly scoring guard. Plus, if NIL passes in August, and he goes to a place where college athletes are placed on pedestals, or a larger market (LA if PAC-12) he could stand to make some beer money. And, it'll be his last chance to bask in the March Madness spotlight.
Well, it's finally out in the open, and should come as no surprise to anyone. Word is it's another P12 school, tho, which will sorta hurt. But you really can't blame Matt...let him get some NCAA Tournament run, as Cal is going to struggle immensely next year with or without him.
This actually may not be the worst thing, as it opens up playing time for Kuany, Bowser, Celestine, and the incoming FR Roberson and Alujaki...developing some of their own recruits is the only thing that is going to get this ship righted, though it's unlikely Fox and Co. are the men to do it.
Arguably Cal played their best stretch of basketball when he was hurt in terms of the team aspect especially on offense so lets see if they can keep it up for longer stretches.
I see a few on this board putting Bradley leaving and/or Cal's general season woes on Fox, and I think that's too easy and simplistic. No one seems to acknowledge that Cal is the most desirable undesirable [sic] gig in D-1 hoops. It has a primo location and academic reputation, but how many aspiring NBA stars put those at the top of their lists? We're not a 'basketball school', have fluctuating administrative support, lack facilities, and have higher entrance requirements than almost every school offering D-1 scholarships. Lots of headwinds. We landed Fox, a fully competent coach, because he had been fired, had taken a year off, was under the radar, probably didn't realize what Bay Area housing costs were, and had no better offers. So, Cal could get him at a bargain rate, offering the 2nd lowest salary in the PAC-12. No way Cal would hire a Mick Cronin at $5M per. And Cal won't touch a coach with a checkered past, and Fox was as clean as they come. Only alternative would have been to roll the dice on a young up-and-comer who's willing to take on the challenge. Who's to say DeCuire would have even taken the job? And there's no guarantee he'd enjoy the same success at Cal has he's had at Montana, and he probably realizes that (see Mark Few). Cal had the opportunity to go for a known quantity vs a swing for the fences. They chose to go conservative, right the ship, stabilize the program. Now, how to attract recruits? Because I don't see our coach/savior anywhere on the horizon.
Yeah not buying that. Haha there’s a reason Decuire interviewed for the job TWICE. I don’t think he’s the hire but there were better gambles out there than a coach that no one wanted to hire for a full year.
Nick's review of the hire at the time would probably equate to an 85% on Rotten Tomatoes. His record on academics (a Cal must) and coaching defenses, and past successes (mostly at Nevada), and price tag when Cal was heavily in the red all contributed to his hire. He had negatives of course (offense has never been strong point on his teams), but he's grown on me this last year. I was worried about his 'hot head' reputation, and I saw some of that in year 1, but he certainly looks to have mellowed this year. And the attitude of this year's team, and how hard they played for him this season, tells me there's something there.
I am in no way concerned with his "hot head" - it's actually refreshing to see a coach on the sidelines that gets pissed at the shitty calls P12 refs make nightly.
But Fox checked a lot of boxes after the Wyking disaster...unfortunately, those qualities do not lend themself to a full rebuild, at least in a timely fashion.
Nah, he's still a hot head and looks like a damn fool on the sideline when acting like a petulant child. Dump him now, why delay the inevitable?
I think we’re talking about different people. When Nick gets back he can clarify but I think I can speak for him. it wasnt even close to an 85. Or even a 58 hire.
We got him as a bargain because the P5 market for Mark Fox was nil. I've never been in the DeCuire camp, but he DEFINITELY would have taken the job. Barbour was apparently ready to make him an offer when Monty left and he wanted the job bad. Wilton intervened and made the Cuonzo hire above her. I have a hard believing he wouldn't have taken it if offered to succeed Wyking, cause I know he has ambitions beyond Montana, as cozy as that gig might be. I know it seems like a distant memory now, but it was just a few years ago that Cal plucked Cuonzo from Tennessee after he had just taken them to the sweet sixteen. No, we don't have Cronin $, but Cuonzo was a big boy hire at the time. And with the exception of Wyking and now Fox, generally Cal has been more ambitious with MBB hires. Braun had just beat Duke in the tourney. Obviously he never developed a change-up after his early success, but that was a well-calculated gamble. Monty was a slam dunk, no-brainer and I'm sure it came with a hefty price tag. Had Bozeman not taken Cal to the sweet sixteen, I know Bockrath would have preferred to go big game hunting. This current reticence to devalue MBB program is actually a newer development over the past few decades.
I wasn’t on the Decuire hire as well but looking at hind sight would I have preferred 7 years of him vs 7 of Cuonzo/Wyking/Fox
DeCuire was super excited about the direction of the Cal program when I had drinks with him (but he was also still in the running to be coach)
I'd say you're probably right, DeCuire would have taken the job, and might now be glad that he didn't have the chance. Fox was sought after in previous years by big name schools, NC State for one, but you and I seem to agree that his stock had fallen as of late (and for the reasons I outlined). That fact doesn't make him unqualified. I disagree with your characterization of Cal's hiring past, though. Of the names I can recall, none struck me as ambitious spending-wise other than Monty (no-brainer) and Cuanzo (successful, young, high character, auspicious timing). Braun & Campanelli would probably be next, but they were elevated from smaller programs, so probably middle PAC salaries at best, and Kuchen (ND assistant), & Bozeman (elevated Cal assistant) were probably on the lower end. I'd say Cal has a history of paying big for 'sure things', but goes on the low end otherwise.
Again, not making the case that we are or ever will be a top of the conference spender, but we have been particularly unimaginative and less spendy of late. Braun wasn't getting Jim Harrick money, but he was a hot hire. Plucking him was roughly equivalent to USC plucking what's his face from Coastal Carolina.
(andy enfield from Florida Gulf Coast)
They are all gambles, just some less so than others. With Fox you had a pretty good idea of what he was bringing and that was mediocrity. Mediocrity is not a great selling point to kids, so then you get run the risk of getting something less than that. I'll say this for the Wyking hire, the floor was really low (and boy did we touch it), but there was enough mystery where I guess you could fool yourself that the ceiling was higher than it was. With Fox, there was really no illusion. Chances of Gates makes a ton of sense. Not without risk, but he comes with a ton of upside; pricier now, but not impossibly so; a proven recruiter; and a greater likelihood than most that he might stick around if he does have success.
Over the decades, Few has had multiple opportunities to move on to 'big time' schools. He has always turned them down in favor of his more remote, small town situation where the pressure is far less, and he has more autonomy over his environment. Not directly equivalent to the job at Montana, but a situation with similar attractions.
I actually read a book on Gonzaga basketball, and as I recall, the groundwork for success was already being laid by the then HC and Few's mentor. Long-time assistant Few was groomed, then elevated to HC when his predecessor retired.
The only thing I can think of that is remotely positive is that the team did OK without Bradley in the line-up. Better hope the recruiting improves and we can start getting the McDonalds All-Americans. Probably under some new up and coming genius coach, whomever that might be,
We suck anyway that I honestly don't care at all, but would be nice if we can get all the best players in transfer portal.
Best of luck to Bradley! I hope we finally hire DeCuire when Fox's contract runs out and I hope Fox has more success next year.
Are there any good comps for a coach pulling a program out from where Fox finds himself?
Dennis Gates pulled Cleveland State from the dead rather quickly, Joe Golding at Abliene Christian to a degree, Brad Underwood at Illinois after Self left them for dead for Kansas, Porter Moser to a lesser degree with Loyola essentially putting them from zero to hero, and even just a pinch of Andy Enfield at USC for picking up the ruins off the back end of the OJ Mayo fall out in terms of sanctions.
Right, plenty of coaches have turned around programs quickly. Fox has now been here two years with a prospect of third that is likely to go about roughly the same as the first two. That means 2-3 years with no progress, no recruits, no player development. Has any coach recovered from that? Gates turned his program around WITHIN two years. Other than not being Wyking, Fox hasn't moved the program an inch with still no evident potential for improvement in the near future. All of the coaches you mentioned had at least incremental success to start.
I honestly thought Andy Enfield was going to be fired sometime in the past but it goes to show that patience pays off in some degree. Some coaches who are on Fox levels of pain are Tom Crean at Georgia and Archie Miller (recently fired) at Indiana and even Steve Prohm(fired) Iowa State,programs that just never got afloat. Others approaching this threshold would be Jerry Stackhouse at Vandy, Mike Hopkins at UW, and even Shaka Smart before he left Texas (despite what the record may say, he fell off comapred to his VCU days).
Enfield kept the program stagnant for two years but won 21 games by year three. Fox went backward in his second year and there is no road for him to make a similar jump in year 3. Shaka underdeliverred on expectations but still won 19-20 games nearly every season. Hopkins at least had good success his first season. The rest have lost their jobs. Have any trended down for two years and then inconceivably turned it around? I'm sure there is an example, but I think we all can agree is would defy any expectation at this point.
It's logical to assume that some talented players would be eligible for special admissions at all of these schools (save perhaps Illinois) that Cal couldn't touch. Just two big talents could swing a program, especially if you're playing the schedule of Cleveland St or Abliene Christian.
I should add that Underwood wasn't the immediate successor to Self for clarification but was the coach who got them back afoot after Self leaving.
Bruce Weber was a really good successor to Self. That Deron Williams team that went to the national championship was better than any of Self's Illini teams, but things started trending back down a bit by the second half of his tenure.
Is he going to graduate such that he can play next year, or is he sitting out?
Either way, hard to see this as anything other than a vote of no confidence in Mark Fox. But if he's willing to sit out a full year to play one at another school, that is a pretty significant indictment.
I believe the COVID one-year exemption is still in place (i.e. don't have to sit out a year), and the NCAA is likely to make it permanent for one-time-only transfers.
Ya he’ll be able to play right away. And it’s not so much an indictment of Fox as it is a realistic view of current state of the program, thanks to Mike Williams & Wyking. Fox is what he is...Bradley deserves the shot to taste success, and it ain’t with this Cal program. But the situation Fox inherited was rough.
Lmao rip the program better hope Monty Bowser is like the 2nd coming or something or else we are in purgatory for a while
We’re approaching the halfway point of a 10 year rebuild. It’s gonna be a decade by the time this is all settled.
That we’re at the halfway point is perhaps overly optimistic at our current rate. We appear to be idle at the starting line still.
Well, I'd say we're pretty much at rock bottom, with 3 of past 4 seasons being last place finishes with inept results. I think things will be pretty bleak in '21-'22, but figure we'll start to show signs of life on the defensive end this year, kinda like we did down the stretch. That'll get us on a more upward trajectory, albeit very, very slowly. Fox is not getting us to the Tournament tho. And we're still 4-5 years away - going into hibernation for a decade is rough.
"Oof!" is probably the only/appropriate response
Eh, it's actually pretty surprising to me. I know we were bad, but that was somewhat recalibrated given the success of our pac12 brethren in the tournament. I think this becomes more of an indictment of Mark Fox (unless there are unrelated personal Bradley things at play here).
This has been on the table since mid-season, regardless of Mark Fox, tho he should be under indictment. But this was pretty close to a done-deal since the beginning of the 2021 year.
Oh, didnt know that. Too bad. I didn't know much about Bradley other than his insane talent, but for some reason assumed he was a "Cal guy". To be honest, I was more heart broken when Jordan Matthews transferred out. Granted, I'm hardly a basketball fan but was into the team during that stretch.
I think it’s pretty simple: I’ve got a year or two of eligibility left with minimal pro potential. We’ve been bad for two years and I don’t see this turning around next year, so I might as well try to taste success elsewhere.
We get the first draft choice, right?