He's a junior in HS. He has his senior year to grow. He'll probably add an inch or they will make him an interior lineman. Even if he gets to 300# as a freshman, he's going to need a year or two on weights and learning technique. But, if he's athletic, he has the frame and good size for a high schooler. I trust Bloesch knows what he's doing and while I value ratings the ratings companies (Rivals, 247. ESPN...) have been known to miss guys (Fernando Mendoza) and also some guys with high ratings turn out to be a bust. If the kid has ability, heart, and desire and loves the game, then I want him. And the only way to find that out is to watch film and talk to him. I trust Bloesch has done that.
Questionable if it helps Cal, a certainty it hurts the sport, hacks don't make a sport better - speaking of hacks, Clueless Carol and Empty Suit Jim have totally FUBARed Cal's Ath Dept so I don't think salaries for a couple of third rate former FB assistants mean much in the grand scheme of things
Sessions looked good in Spring. If Cindric comes back then Driscoll will move to one of the guard positions, and then Vatikani would battle Aguilar for the other Guard spot. Vatikani is a big, strong, tough and nasty player, but he is still very raw on technique. Aguilar looked REAL good this Spring and might end up beating out Vatikani just because his technique is better. So that leaves us with weakside tackle which has to be the most athletic lineman: Rhome is just not that athletic. I like the kid and he has worked hard to earn his spot, he is tough and physical, so I hope he can get it all together before the season starts.
Is Cindric going to be healthy enough much less be able to play most of this season? IIRC he had / has a significant back injury. It's great that he wants to come back and play, the question is will he be able to and for how much?
Right, and his Twitter account is followed by Aristotle Thompson, Benji Palu, and Marshall Cherrington, but I'm not sure how actively Cal is recruiting him.
Because they have evaluated him and he is not 'starter' material. At 6'6" 280# he's skinny. He needs to add mass to play well at the P5 level as an interior lineman. IOL ususally are 6'3" or 6'4" and 310 to 330 lbs. And one techs on defense that guards will block are usually around 320 to 330 lbs.
Doing what we need to do. Based on how people described practice sessions, improved OL coaching alone won't get us where we need to be. Musgrave and McClure Foxed up big time.
Never say never. We have some decent talent and if Coach Bloesch can coach them up the way I think he can, they will be better than last year. That being said, its always good to have more big, strong and ATHLETIC o-linemen.
To your point, we won't have the best line (or even anything close to it) in the PAC12. But if it is serviceable then we have a chance to win those games we lost by one score. (10 in the last two seasons). If we win 4 or 5 more games a season we are a different team. I feel pretty good watching our Spring game film except for our weakside tackle position. Rhome really needs to up his game or we will have problems.
Hi Bob, I wrote a lengthy response to your questions that for some reason didn't post. (This has happened before and it's getting annoying). I'll give you a short and sweet answer. Knape is a junior in HS. He'll grow another inch and he will put on more weight. Even with all that he won't be ready as a freshman to play. Just about every frosh o-liner needs a year or two of work in the weight room to strengthen up and lose baby fat. Very few come in as strong as Vatikani. Secondly, they need time to learn technique. If you look at our top freshman from a year ago, they are on our second line as sophomores. That makes sense to me. For a freshman to start at O-Line it means the kid is a very rare talent or that there just wasn't much talent in the group of older players. Frankly, if a kid is 6'6 and 250# as a freshman but loves the game, is athletic, works hard, is physical and academically solid, I would not have a problem picking him up. Years ago Don James at UW, who invented 'the program' won a national title with these kinds of players. He found long and rangy kids who were athletic, physical, and nasty. Over 4 or 5 years he bulked them up and turned them into studs. Remember Steven Emtman? He came in as a skinny kid and ended up the top choice in the draft as a d-lineman (although his NFL career was pretty much a bust). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Emtman
OL was clearly our Achilles heel last year. We must have led league in 3 and outs. This meant the defense was on the field far too long and we consistently got dominated in time of possession. When the D is on the field too long, it all comes home to roost in the 4th quarter. We lost almost every 4th quarter last year.
Given that, I was shocked we signed no OL prospects in the spring recruiting class. And the OL deficiency continues to be palpable as we saw in the spring game. We're still not there yet. We have some wonderful skill players, but if we can't block for them our 'O' is still going to be a 3 and out machine. If we don't fix the OL I would expect another 4-8 season.
When Furd started their rebuild years ago Shaw emphasized an offense that was straightforward and would live and die by the O line. (Things I have read indicate that) the O line is on average the smartest position group in the game. (Rugby fans - there (might still) be an old car driving around Berkeley with the bumper sticker... If you think I'm dumb, my brother's a prop...(!)... former flyhalf myself though purely recreational...) There was some coverage that CAL intended to go a similar route a couple years ago and brought in some TE's to complete the package. Here's the point... we got a couple like Browne and Ramsey mentioned below but clearly never opened the pipeline and those guys haven't been on the field enough to show newer recruits we're a good place to develop (which we weren't under the previous regime...).
A lot of words to get to... I'm personally NOT surprised we didn't get OL recruits this past cycle. We had nothing to generate excitement and no recruiting chops at the position. With the staff being very selective in offers, there just weren't enough interest/grades/offers/coaches fired/whatever intersections.
Your game analysis reads clear and accurate. Let's hope Wilcox can see that and got the O coaches right this time (pronounced Blesh as in real flesh and blood coach not Blech like let's vomit again) and existing relationships turn into portal Au (or at least .975 Ag) so the team can buy Wilcox another couple years of mediocrity... recruiting is the lifeblood of college football and even though Cherrington and some others seem good, the OL recruiting debacle was expected because that entire chain of command was failing all the way to the top... in this observer's opinion.
Additionally there are very few really good o-linemen that hit the portal. Think about it, starters don't leave unless they want to move up like Emmanuel Pregnon who will go from Wyoming to a major P5 program. The top eight or nine o-liners in major programs will most likely all see playing time and the numbers 6 - 9 are waiting their turn to get into the starting rotation. The O-liner that are not in the starting 8 or 9 are usually not the kind of players that are going to provide an upgrade to a program like CAL. If you look at the Portal since it opened this Spring, there are only 4 or 5 o-liners that would be an upgrade to our program. As I said in another post, finding big, strong, athletic and nasty o-linemen with playing experience is tough, there just aren't that many and when they are available they are coveted.
I agree with you that we haven't yet generated the excitement of an up and coming program where any player wants to come because the will add to the success, the wins and the bowl games. We were on that track until covid and need to get back on that track again. If Spav can coach up Jackson we have a chance. As we become a legitimate contender in the PAC we will see better talent join the team.
> (Things I have read indicate that) the O line is on average the smartest position group in the game.
Yes, THIS (says the mom whose son was an all-county TE as a frosh who then moved to C when the coach realized the team needed his intelligence on the line…). 😊
Hail Mary? Musgrave and the ex-O line coach sure left Cal in deep guano, hope neither of them gets a sniff from another school, they're bad for football.
A lot of the blame needs to fall on Wilcox. He is simply not a capable head coach and administrator. Cal has had some recent and fairly highly rated O line recruits- namely Jackson Brown and Trent Ramsey. One or both of them should be stepping up and ready to contribute serious snaps this fall. Hopefully the summer strength and conditioning program delivers a miracle. Don't want to see T.J. Session starting and doing the matador moves he performed last year against talented edge rushers.
I'll disagree with you completely on your assessment of Wilcox. I think there is no one better for the job considering the hoops he has to jump through at CAL and the whole covid at CAL situation. Brown and Ramsey are on the 2nd team o-line, which is where they should be. Starting freshman or RS freshman o-linemen is like starting a freshman QB, they aren't ready. First of all even a high school 300 pounder rarely has the strength to play (Vatikani is a rare exception). They need a couple of years in the weight room to shed baby fat and muscle up and add 10 to 20 lbs. Second they need to learn technique which takes time. The fact that Vatikani started as a freshman wasn't just a testament to his size and strength, but to the fact we had no one older that was any good.
And finally, don't compare the way guys played last year to this year. Part of their poor play was on McClure's inability to coach them up and part was on scheme. If you guys actually watched the film and observed what did, you would scratch your head. We have a much bette o-line coach this year and a new offensive scheme. I expect both of these points to help us improve. Like I said earlier, marginal improvements that us in a position to win one score games will have a huge difference in the outcome of our season.
Albeit it was a showcase but I have to think the coaches are desperate to get some help from the portal during this session. The OL did not look good especially given that most of our DL starters did not play. I fear Jackson will be running for his life and will get pancaked on one of his leaping throws (that will likely get intercepted for a TD!!)
I think Rugbear has beat that horse dead already. The general consensus seems to be that the Oline still needs work and, probably, a talent upgrade, especially at tackle.
The o-line does need work. It always needs work. We are already better than last year and it showed in our final Spring scrimmage. Are we at a point where it will turn one score losses into wins? I can't say that yet with any certainty. And the one position I am worried about is weakside tackle. So if you think beating a dead horse means I am unreasonably optimistic, then I would say you are wrong. If you think it means that we are improved and getting better then you would be right. I agree that we always need more work and better talent. That's the same for any team. But barring that we need to be real about what we have and what we can get out of them, and Bloesch is doing a much job coaching our kids than McClure ever did, and I think our schemes will be simpler and not have the holes in them that Musgrave's had. I think everyone here would like to hear your ideas about how we can attract better talent; I certainly would.
Hi Bob, I think it's more like when there are only 4 or 5 really worthwhile O-Linemen in the Spring Portal that we end up competing with a lot of schools. Heck, when USC, UCLA, UW in the PAC are offering the same kids as we are and then there's the offers coming in from other P5 conferences, it gets real tough. If you were all but guaranteed a starting spot at USC with Caleb Williams as your QB and a chance to go to a really big bowl game, would you pick CAL? Then there is UCLA and UW...and all the rest.
He's a junior in HS. He has his senior year to grow. He'll probably add an inch or they will make him an interior lineman. Even if he gets to 300# as a freshman, he's going to need a year or two on weights and learning technique. But, if he's athletic, he has the frame and good size for a high schooler. I trust Bloesch knows what he's doing and while I value ratings the ratings companies (Rivals, 247. ESPN...) have been known to miss guys (Fernando Mendoza) and also some guys with high ratings turn out to be a bust. If the kid has ability, heart, and desire and loves the game, then I want him. And the only way to find that out is to watch film and talk to him. I trust Bloesch has done that.
Questionable if it helps Cal, a certainty it hurts the sport, hacks don't make a sport better - speaking of hacks, Clueless Carol and Empty Suit Jim have totally FUBARed Cal's Ath Dept so I don't think salaries for a couple of third rate former FB assistants mean much in the grand scheme of things
Outside of Cindric and Vatikani I am terrified by what our line play might look like.
Sessions looked good in Spring. If Cindric comes back then Driscoll will move to one of the guard positions, and then Vatikani would battle Aguilar for the other Guard spot. Vatikani is a big, strong, tough and nasty player, but he is still very raw on technique. Aguilar looked REAL good this Spring and might end up beating out Vatikani just because his technique is better. So that leaves us with weakside tackle which has to be the most athletic lineman: Rhome is just not that athletic. I like the kid and he has worked hard to earn his spot, he is tough and physical, so I hope he can get it all together before the season starts.
Is Cindric going to be healthy enough much less be able to play most of this season? IIRC he had / has a significant back injury. It's great that he wants to come back and play, the question is will he be able to and for how much?
Good point.
What about SDSU's Josh Simmons?? Any idea if he's an option?
Right, and his Twitter account is followed by Aristotle Thompson, Benji Palu, and Marshall Cherrington, but I'm not sure how actively Cal is recruiting him.
He needs 25 pounds on his frame to play well in P5.
Because they have evaluated him and he is not 'starter' material. At 6'6" 280# he's skinny. He needs to add mass to play well at the P5 level as an interior lineman. IOL ususally are 6'3" or 6'4" and 310 to 330 lbs. And one techs on defense that guards will block are usually around 320 to 330 lbs.
Doing what we need to do. Based on how people described practice sessions, improved OL coaching alone won't get us where we need to be. Musgrave and McClure Foxed up big time.
Never say never. We have some decent talent and if Coach Bloesch can coach them up the way I think he can, they will be better than last year. That being said, its always good to have more big, strong and ATHLETIC o-linemen.
When it comes to OL, your opinion means a ton. I like the optimism and also believe Bloesch can make it happen if anyone can.
To your point, we won't have the best line (or even anything close to it) in the PAC12. But if it is serviceable then we have a chance to win those games we lost by one score. (10 in the last two seasons). If we win 4 or 5 more games a season we are a different team. I feel pretty good watching our Spring game film except for our weakside tackle position. Rhome really needs to up his game or we will have problems.
Hi Bob, I wrote a lengthy response to your questions that for some reason didn't post. (This has happened before and it's getting annoying). I'll give you a short and sweet answer. Knape is a junior in HS. He'll grow another inch and he will put on more weight. Even with all that he won't be ready as a freshman to play. Just about every frosh o-liner needs a year or two of work in the weight room to strengthen up and lose baby fat. Very few come in as strong as Vatikani. Secondly, they need time to learn technique. If you look at our top freshman from a year ago, they are on our second line as sophomores. That makes sense to me. For a freshman to start at O-Line it means the kid is a very rare talent or that there just wasn't much talent in the group of older players. Frankly, if a kid is 6'6 and 250# as a freshman but loves the game, is athletic, works hard, is physical and academically solid, I would not have a problem picking him up. Years ago Don James at UW, who invented 'the program' won a national title with these kinds of players. He found long and rangy kids who were athletic, physical, and nasty. Over 4 or 5 years he bulked them up and turned them into studs. Remember Steven Emtman? He came in as a skinny kid and ended up the top choice in the draft as a d-lineman (although his NFL career was pretty much a bust). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Emtman
Not surprised that it's taking so long to fill our biggest gaps in OL and QB. Gonna take a lot more than new offense coaching to turn this ship around
OL was clearly our Achilles heel last year. We must have led league in 3 and outs. This meant the defense was on the field far too long and we consistently got dominated in time of possession. When the D is on the field too long, it all comes home to roost in the 4th quarter. We lost almost every 4th quarter last year.
Given that, I was shocked we signed no OL prospects in the spring recruiting class. And the OL deficiency continues to be palpable as we saw in the spring game. We're still not there yet. We have some wonderful skill players, but if we can't block for them our 'O' is still going to be a 3 and out machine. If we don't fix the OL I would expect another 4-8 season.
Goof o-linemen are rare and hard to come by, even in the portal. The good ones will have lots of choices.
When Furd started their rebuild years ago Shaw emphasized an offense that was straightforward and would live and die by the O line. (Things I have read indicate that) the O line is on average the smartest position group in the game. (Rugby fans - there (might still) be an old car driving around Berkeley with the bumper sticker... If you think I'm dumb, my brother's a prop...(!)... former flyhalf myself though purely recreational...) There was some coverage that CAL intended to go a similar route a couple years ago and brought in some TE's to complete the package. Here's the point... we got a couple like Browne and Ramsey mentioned below but clearly never opened the pipeline and those guys haven't been on the field enough to show newer recruits we're a good place to develop (which we weren't under the previous regime...).
A lot of words to get to... I'm personally NOT surprised we didn't get OL recruits this past cycle. We had nothing to generate excitement and no recruiting chops at the position. With the staff being very selective in offers, there just weren't enough interest/grades/offers/coaches fired/whatever intersections.
Your game analysis reads clear and accurate. Let's hope Wilcox can see that and got the O coaches right this time (pronounced Blesh as in real flesh and blood coach not Blech like let's vomit again) and existing relationships turn into portal Au (or at least .975 Ag) so the team can buy Wilcox another couple years of mediocrity... recruiting is the lifeblood of college football and even though Cherrington and some others seem good, the OL recruiting debacle was expected because that entire chain of command was failing all the way to the top... in this observer's opinion.
Additionally there are very few really good o-linemen that hit the portal. Think about it, starters don't leave unless they want to move up like Emmanuel Pregnon who will go from Wyoming to a major P5 program. The top eight or nine o-liners in major programs will most likely all see playing time and the numbers 6 - 9 are waiting their turn to get into the starting rotation. The O-liner that are not in the starting 8 or 9 are usually not the kind of players that are going to provide an upgrade to a program like CAL. If you look at the Portal since it opened this Spring, there are only 4 or 5 o-liners that would be an upgrade to our program. As I said in another post, finding big, strong, athletic and nasty o-linemen with playing experience is tough, there just aren't that many and when they are available they are coveted.
I agree with you that we haven't yet generated the excitement of an up and coming program where any player wants to come because the will add to the success, the wins and the bowl games. We were on that track until covid and need to get back on that track again. If Spav can coach up Jackson we have a chance. As we become a legitimate contender in the PAC we will see better talent join the team.
> (Things I have read indicate that) the O line is on average the smartest position group in the game.
Yes, THIS (says the mom whose son was an all-county TE as a frosh who then moved to C when the coach realized the team needed his intelligence on the line…). 😊
Hopefully this does not represent re-arranging the lounge chairs on the Titanic.
Hail Mary? Musgrave and the ex-O line coach sure left Cal in deep guano, hope neither of them gets a sniff from another school, they're bad for football.
Both were hired, which is fine by me if it reduces our payout.
A lot of the blame needs to fall on Wilcox. He is simply not a capable head coach and administrator. Cal has had some recent and fairly highly rated O line recruits- namely Jackson Brown and Trent Ramsey. One or both of them should be stepping up and ready to contribute serious snaps this fall. Hopefully the summer strength and conditioning program delivers a miracle. Don't want to see T.J. Session starting and doing the matador moves he performed last year against talented edge rushers.
I'll disagree with you completely on your assessment of Wilcox. I think there is no one better for the job considering the hoops he has to jump through at CAL and the whole covid at CAL situation. Brown and Ramsey are on the 2nd team o-line, which is where they should be. Starting freshman or RS freshman o-linemen is like starting a freshman QB, they aren't ready. First of all even a high school 300 pounder rarely has the strength to play (Vatikani is a rare exception). They need a couple of years in the weight room to shed baby fat and muscle up and add 10 to 20 lbs. Second they need to learn technique which takes time. The fact that Vatikani started as a freshman wasn't just a testament to his size and strength, but to the fact we had no one older that was any good.
And finally, don't compare the way guys played last year to this year. Part of their poor play was on McClure's inability to coach them up and part was on scheme. If you guys actually watched the film and observed what did, you would scratch your head. We have a much bette o-line coach this year and a new offensive scheme. I expect both of these points to help us improve. Like I said earlier, marginal improvements that us in a position to win one score games will have a huge difference in the outcome of our season.
Albeit it was a showcase but I have to think the coaches are desperate to get some help from the portal during this session. The OL did not look good especially given that most of our DL starters did not play. I fear Jackson will be running for his life and will get pancaked on one of his leaping throws (that will likely get intercepted for a TD!!)
Thanks to both of you - good info
I think Rugbear has beat that horse dead already. The general consensus seems to be that the Oline still needs work and, probably, a talent upgrade, especially at tackle.
The o-line does need work. It always needs work. We are already better than last year and it showed in our final Spring scrimmage. Are we at a point where it will turn one score losses into wins? I can't say that yet with any certainty. And the one position I am worried about is weakside tackle. So if you think beating a dead horse means I am unreasonably optimistic, then I would say you are wrong. If you think it means that we are improved and getting better then you would be right. I agree that we always need more work and better talent. That's the same for any team. But barring that we need to be real about what we have and what we can get out of them, and Bloesch is doing a much job coaching our kids than McClure ever did, and I think our schemes will be simpler and not have the holes in them that Musgrave's had. I think everyone here would like to hear your ideas about how we can attract better talent; I certainly would.
Hi Bob, I think it's more like when there are only 4 or 5 really worthwhile O-Linemen in the Spring Portal that we end up competing with a lot of schools. Heck, when USC, UCLA, UW in the PAC are offering the same kids as we are and then there's the offers coming in from other P5 conferences, it gets real tough. If you were all but guaranteed a starting spot at USC with Caleb Williams as your QB and a chance to go to a really big bowl game, would you pick CAL? Then there is UCLA and UW...and all the rest.