The PAC 12 should collaborate with the Big 10 to form a mega coast to coast conference of universities that care about academics as well as athletics. The Rose Bowl would be for the conference championship.
This is all about $. Texas has a population of 30 million, and it is rapidly growing. Grabbing some Texas teams would be very attractive from a media rights perspective. If the PAC-12 were to take Tech, Baylor, and TCU, along with OSU, the conference would definitely be able to increase its per share take, while staying relevant in the long term and likely eclipsing the ACC as the #3 conference. And it doesn't exactly matter where the school is located. It's where the alumni are. Most of the alumni of these schools (including OSU) are clustered in Texas, especially north and central Texas. Advertisers would like it.
True, Texas has a huge population . . . but I don't think a particularly large percentage of that population is clamoring to watch Tech, Baylor, and TCU. The TV networks want national brands and those schools aren't it.
They definitely aren't the same as Texas or Oklahoma, and TCU probably has the worst brand of the three, but TTU and Baylor have decent brands akin to many of the second tier programs in the B1G and SEC. The top tier brands just aren't available, and for the casual sports fan in Texas a well-matched game between Texas and California schools would often be worth watching (there's a lot of state-based homerism here). And the same is probably true in California, though to a lesser extent.
Agree with your conclusion that the PAC doesn't HAVE to do anything. My concern is what happens if (for example) USC/UCLA or Oregon/Washington get poached away by the Big10. Sitting pat could be a disaster in a scenario like that.
Feels like that scenario would be an inevitability if the conference is not aggressive. I'm not impressed by any of the possible additions, but I do think the conference will become vulnerable if it doesn't consider some sort of expansion and figure out the television stuff in the next few years.
At last night's dinner, my son had what I think is a solid idea, but I have no knowledge of whether the Big-10/14 is interested. Rather than expand, make a pack with the Big-10 for each Pac-12 team to play two Big-10 teams every year, drop one Pac-12 game leaving 2 games open on the schedule.
Let's take this one step further. One of those games is always scheduled for November and matches up teams bases on their conference standings. The conference leaders always play at the Rose Bowl.
because of $. Pac12 schools pull about $32M in TV money a year. SEC gets $50M. I have heard estimates that Texas and OU will bring anywhere from $10M per team to $40+M per team. I suspect the truth is in the middle. Big12 apparently has a de-escaltor clause that says the money goes down if teams leave. The current estimate for the Big12 goes from $37M per team down to $9M once Texas and OU leave. With 3rd tier rights, Texas and OU therefore command about $315M a year in TV money based on the old Big12 deal which equates to ~$20M per team in a 16 team SEC. But that deal is 5+ years old I think...$30M plus per year is possible with SEC interest in today's market (i.e. ESPN). Does UT and OU get the same $ if they join the Pac12? Not even close...
Because we tried that once before and it didn’t work.
I am bit surprised that this isn’t a possibility. If the rumors are true about UT going to the SEC and they are willing to drop TLN then I don’t see why the Pac 12 doesn’t start up negotiations again.
Last time we were willing to take UT/Tech and OU/OSU so long as UT dropped TLN and came in as an equal partner in revenue sharing.
OU/OSU are probably a better cultural and academic fit with the SEC but UT is probably a better cultural and academic fit with the Pac and Tech isn’t bad in terms of academics.
UT would also be in a better position in terms of competitiveness in the Pac 12 than the SEC.
Also, going to the Pac 12 and bringing Tech and OSU along would probably make things politically easier for UT and OU in their states.
This would give the Pac 12 16 teams.
If the Big 10 took Kansas and ISU that would give them 16 teams as well.
The SEC could raid the ACC for Clemson and Miami or FSU to get to 16 teams.
That would give us 3 power conferences with each conference getting two playoff spots guaranteed, get rid of the conference championship games and just take the two highest rated teams from each conference and for the hell of it throw in two more wildcard spots for the G5 schools
There is no political issue in Texas or Oklahoma. Apparently, OU and OSU are completely decoupled already and in Texas, state house is on recess til 2023 and the special session they're in now a) the Dems are all in NY having fled the Republican efforts at destroying voting rights so there is no quorum and b) bills can only be approved by the Gov...who is a Texas grad
Most Baylor, TCU and Tech fans will never vote Democrat anyway...plus, he almost certainly is not running for re-election. Already has a deep war chest for his Presidential run in '24 (snicker)
I remember for a couple years after the Big10's last expansion they had that TV commercial with a cutesy animated map of the US showing all their team logos and territories sprout up, and Rutgers pops up with NYC buildings/skyline as its territory. What a complete joke that was. I would love to know the % of people who live in NYC who have even heard of Rutgers, despite its proximity. There were so many more deserving teams to hitch that lucrative Big10 ride.
Siri list 8 undesirable place to go watch a college football game. (Actually I would go to Morgantown if Cal ever plays there, but probably only once.)
This is all becoming MORE absurd. The expansionism in the SEC makes sense for them, because those are generally football and sports focused institutions who also happen to have academic programs.
A few notes:
Geography: It is a shorter drive from Gainesville to Norman (17 hours) than from Seattle to Tucson (23 hours). I realize that airplanes exist, but football road trips build character. These young boys, girls, and theys need to see the vast expanse of this country! Nobody is road tripping from the West Coast to any of those places.
Culture: How many times have we been over this? Please stop considering further dilution of the pool. We already let in an "academic institution" with the nickname of an animal that does not exist on this continent. This is the umpteenth time I have raised this issue. It worries me greatly. At least we know a Jayhawk is fake. (Right?)
Ideology: Two of those school are religious institutions, so that's a hard no. Speaking of other odd arrangements of sky daddy influenced higher learning, BYU. With a frequency, college sports reporter brainiacs propose that BYU should join the PAC. Alternative proposal: BYU + SMU + TCU + Baylor + Notre Dame join to create the Much Ado About Nothing Conference.
Oh man, I failed to recognize that opportunity. Good call. Also Mountaineers vs. Bears = a mascot scenario once played out in real life. In this one, I hope Leonardo does not kill us dead after we maul him for the better of 3 hours.
Fair enough on the travel issue for the teams. For example, Cal could fly OAK to MCI and then drive an hour to Lawrence to battle the fictional birds. But the coeds need to stop taking the fly-over states for granted and instead take the drive across I-70. Upon entering Kansas, one is immediately greeted with "Pro Life" billboards. The greeting soon becomes a barrage. One needs to see and experience the country rather than just read about it on The Hill. In summary, Kansas sucks, but don't take my word for it.
Kansas, along with Iowa State, is almost certainly heading to the Big10 (B1G), so I wouldn't worry about them.
RE: religious affiliation, I've been on the fence about it. For all intents and purposes, Utah is one and yet I'm against BYU. Then you have schools like Notre Dame and Boston College who are Jesuit/Catholic and I wouldn't mind being in a conference with, hypothetically speaking, so it reads a little discriminatory on my part, to reject only the newer/evangelical style affiliations. But hey, that's how I feel.
That said, among the available Big8 teams, I'd want TCU the most, without knowing much about the school. I could see some potential in Baylor, didn't realize it was religious affiliated until a couple days ago when all this broke out.
Long story short, I prefer no Pac 12 expansion at all, probably like most people here, and hopefully it's all moot.
Not entirely sure about that. I read that for 2019 TV ratings TCU had an average of 1.19M viewers per game compared to Texas Tech's 1.03M.
I think the prospect of 3+ Pac 12 teams playing directly in Ft. Worth each year would be great for recruiting, with all those DFW area high school kids just getting more familiar with the conference.
neither is desirable. As I pointed out above, there is apparently a de-escalator clause in the Big12 TV contract which means that when Texas and OU leave, the per school payout drops from ~$37M per year (10 teams) down to ~$9M per school (8 teams). So effectively, Any Big12 school the Pac adds gets everyone about $750k extra per year per team. While the numbers will vary slightly based on the teams, consider me underwhelmed regardless
https://mobile.twitter.com/byjoelanderson/status/1420514610885496833
Makes more sense to have A&M and Texas together. Texas has to be w OU, so pick a third
The PAC 12 should collaborate with the Big 10 to form a mega coast to coast conference of universities that care about academics as well as athletics. The Rose Bowl would be for the conference championship.
This is all about $. Texas has a population of 30 million, and it is rapidly growing. Grabbing some Texas teams would be very attractive from a media rights perspective. If the PAC-12 were to take Tech, Baylor, and TCU, along with OSU, the conference would definitely be able to increase its per share take, while staying relevant in the long term and likely eclipsing the ACC as the #3 conference. And it doesn't exactly matter where the school is located. It's where the alumni are. Most of the alumni of these schools (including OSU) are clustered in Texas, especially north and central Texas. Advertisers would like it.
True, Texas has a huge population . . . but I don't think a particularly large percentage of that population is clamoring to watch Tech, Baylor, and TCU. The TV networks want national brands and those schools aren't it.
They definitely aren't the same as Texas or Oklahoma, and TCU probably has the worst brand of the three, but TTU and Baylor have decent brands akin to many of the second tier programs in the B1G and SEC. The top tier brands just aren't available, and for the casual sports fan in Texas a well-matched game between Texas and California schools would often be worth watching (there's a lot of state-based homerism here). And the same is probably true in California, though to a lesser extent.
Yeah, it's fine in theory, but as you said, Nick, the networks didn't budge WITH Texas and Oklahoma.
Agree with your conclusion that the PAC doesn't HAVE to do anything. My concern is what happens if (for example) USC/UCLA or Oregon/Washington get poached away by the Big10. Sitting pat could be a disaster in a scenario like that.
Feels like that scenario would be an inevitability if the conference is not aggressive. I'm not impressed by any of the possible additions, but I do think the conference will become vulnerable if it doesn't consider some sort of expansion and figure out the television stuff in the next few years.
Then we'll join ACC.
This stuff is so complicated. No wonder I grew up favoring the NFL.
At last night's dinner, my son had what I think is a solid idea, but I have no knowledge of whether the Big-10/14 is interested. Rather than expand, make a pack with the Big-10 for each Pac-12 team to play two Big-10 teams every year, drop one Pac-12 game leaving 2 games open on the schedule.
Let's take this one step further. One of those games is always scheduled for November and matches up teams bases on their conference standings. The conference leaders always play at the Rose Bowl.
If it led to better non-con schedules and kept conference membership in the Pac and the B1G status-quo, that would be a nice win-win
This was kind of brought up in the other thread. A Pac/Big alliance to counter the SEC.
Why don't we just recruit Texas and Oklahoma into Pac12 and make Pac-14.
because of $. Pac12 schools pull about $32M in TV money a year. SEC gets $50M. I have heard estimates that Texas and OU will bring anywhere from $10M per team to $40+M per team. I suspect the truth is in the middle. Big12 apparently has a de-escaltor clause that says the money goes down if teams leave. The current estimate for the Big12 goes from $37M per team down to $9M once Texas and OU leave. With 3rd tier rights, Texas and OU therefore command about $315M a year in TV money based on the old Big12 deal which equates to ~$20M per team in a 16 team SEC. But that deal is 5+ years old I think...$30M plus per year is possible with SEC interest in today's market (i.e. ESPN). Does UT and OU get the same $ if they join the Pac12? Not even close...
Yep, all of this. It’s all about the money and UT/OU going to the SEC means a lot more money than going to the Pac 12.
Because we tried that once before and it didn’t work.
I am bit surprised that this isn’t a possibility. If the rumors are true about UT going to the SEC and they are willing to drop TLN then I don’t see why the Pac 12 doesn’t start up negotiations again.
Last time we were willing to take UT/Tech and OU/OSU so long as UT dropped TLN and came in as an equal partner in revenue sharing.
OU/OSU are probably a better cultural and academic fit with the SEC but UT is probably a better cultural and academic fit with the Pac and Tech isn’t bad in terms of academics.
UT would also be in a better position in terms of competitiveness in the Pac 12 than the SEC.
Also, going to the Pac 12 and bringing Tech and OSU along would probably make things politically easier for UT and OU in their states.
This would give the Pac 12 16 teams.
If the Big 10 took Kansas and ISU that would give them 16 teams as well.
The SEC could raid the ACC for Clemson and Miami or FSU to get to 16 teams.
That would give us 3 power conferences with each conference getting two playoff spots guaranteed, get rid of the conference championship games and just take the two highest rated teams from each conference and for the hell of it throw in two more wildcard spots for the G5 schools
There is no political issue in Texas or Oklahoma. Apparently, OU and OSU are completely decoupled already and in Texas, state house is on recess til 2023 and the special session they're in now a) the Dems are all in NY having fled the Republican efforts at destroying voting rights so there is no quorum and b) bills can only be approved by the Gov...who is a Texas grad
Wait; you’re telling me Gov Abbott is okay with canceling the Big 12 and all the non UT schools?!?!
Most Baylor, TCU and Tech fans will never vote Democrat anyway...plus, he almost certainly is not running for re-election. Already has a deep war chest for his Presidential run in '24 (snicker)
Nick, why not just add 4, and kick out the desert schools so we could have a Pac8 division, and [Mtn8] division?
Interesting - I'm not really one for kicking anybody out of the conference, but it would be Utah and Colorado before Arizona and ASU for me.
Yeah, that 35-0 beatdown still smarts.
I think he meant add 4 to conference and send Arizona ASU Colorado Utah to a new division with newcomers.
Me=dumb
You mean like a Mountain division and a West division
I remember for a couple years after the Big10's last expansion they had that TV commercial with a cutesy animated map of the US showing all their team logos and territories sprout up, and Rutgers pops up with NYC buildings/skyline as its territory. What a complete joke that was. I would love to know the % of people who live in NYC who have even heard of Rutgers, despite its proximity. There were so many more deserving teams to hitch that lucrative Big10 ride.
I did really like that commercial. I also had the same thought and opinion with regards to Rutgers and NYC.
Siri list 8 undesirable place to go watch a college football game. (Actually I would go to Morgantown if Cal ever plays there, but probably only once.)
This is all becoming MORE absurd. The expansionism in the SEC makes sense for them, because those are generally football and sports focused institutions who also happen to have academic programs.
A few notes:
Geography: It is a shorter drive from Gainesville to Norman (17 hours) than from Seattle to Tucson (23 hours). I realize that airplanes exist, but football road trips build character. These young boys, girls, and theys need to see the vast expanse of this country! Nobody is road tripping from the West Coast to any of those places.
Culture: How many times have we been over this? Please stop considering further dilution of the pool. We already let in an "academic institution" with the nickname of an animal that does not exist on this continent. This is the umpteenth time I have raised this issue. It worries me greatly. At least we know a Jayhawk is fake. (Right?)
Ideology: Two of those school are religious institutions, so that's a hard no. Speaking of other odd arrangements of sky daddy influenced higher learning, BYU. With a frequency, college sports reporter brainiacs propose that BYU should join the PAC. Alternative proposal: BYU + SMU + TCU + Baylor + Notre Dame join to create the Much Ado About Nothing Conference.
Anyway, bigger is not better. Just ask my wife!
If we ever play West Virginia, we should wear nearly identical uniforms as an added feature/challenge to the game.
My thoughts exactly. I can’t wait for the day that Cal and WVU play each other and our uniforms match during the game.
Oh man, I failed to recognize that opportunity. Good call. Also Mountaineers vs. Bears = a mascot scenario once played out in real life. In this one, I hope Leonardo does not kill us dead after we maul him for the better of 3 hours.
I had thought it was Golden Bear. No such thing.
http://www.bearconservation.org.uk/california-grizzly-bear-extinct/
Fair enough on the travel issue for the teams. For example, Cal could fly OAK to MCI and then drive an hour to Lawrence to battle the fictional birds. But the coeds need to stop taking the fly-over states for granted and instead take the drive across I-70. Upon entering Kansas, one is immediately greeted with "Pro Life" billboards. The greeting soon becomes a barrage. One needs to see and experience the country rather than just read about it on The Hill. In summary, Kansas sucks, but don't take my word for it.
Kansas, along with Iowa State, is almost certainly heading to the Big10 (B1G), so I wouldn't worry about them.
RE: religious affiliation, I've been on the fence about it. For all intents and purposes, Utah is one and yet I'm against BYU. Then you have schools like Notre Dame and Boston College who are Jesuit/Catholic and I wouldn't mind being in a conference with, hypothetically speaking, so it reads a little discriminatory on my part, to reject only the newer/evangelical style affiliations. But hey, that's how I feel.
That said, among the available Big8 teams, I'd want TCU the most, without knowing much about the school. I could see some potential in Baylor, didn't realize it was religious affiliated until a couple days ago when all this broke out.
Long story short, I prefer no Pac 12 expansion at all, probably like most people here, and hopefully it's all moot.
TCU has no fanbase and no TV appeal. Tech would bring more in the DFW market than TCU
Not entirely sure about that. I read that for 2019 TV ratings TCU had an average of 1.19M viewers per game compared to Texas Tech's 1.03M.
I think the prospect of 3+ Pac 12 teams playing directly in Ft. Worth each year would be great for recruiting, with all those DFW area high school kids just getting more familiar with the conference.
neither is desirable. As I pointed out above, there is apparently a de-escalator clause in the Big12 TV contract which means that when Texas and OU leave, the per school payout drops from ~$37M per year (10 teams) down to ~$9M per school (8 teams). So effectively, Any Big12 school the Pac adds gets everyone about $750k extra per year per team. While the numbers will vary slightly based on the teams, consider me underwhelmed regardless
https://nationalzoo.si.edu/animals/news/its-bison-not-buffalo-and-other-american-bison-facts