Being a USC/STANFORD alum, I look forward to USC in the BIG 10 and I believe Stanford will also end up in either the BIG 10, BIG 12 or possibly ACC.I also look forward to CAL being in a league with their peers, San Jose State, Fresno State, SDSU, UNLV, UNR, Boise State, Hawaii, OSU, WSU, Wyoming, New Mexico, CSU and Airforce and USU.
Screw pac 12. Always snubbing boise state. Fits perfectly with its northwest location. Great football school! Tulane , smu,. Really. Even sandiego state. No one cares about them on a national level. People on national scale like boise state. They follow them. Yet pac 12 isn't interested. Fresno has great football program as well. Pac 12 leadership is not doing the conference justice. The decisions they are making will ruin the con ference. They would have a .much better chance to get a media deal done if they added boise and fresno.
I am a bear of little brain who also has been wondering just why in the hell do the academics or cultural fit matter when it comes to deciding who you are going to play football with?
But it's kind of starting to dawn on me (or perhaps I'm starting to remember) that the University of California at Berkeley is also a kind of *business*, just like its football team is a kind of *business*.
The University of California at Berkeley's total operating revenue in 2020 was approximately $3.1 BILLION, which includes not only tuition and fees but also government grants, donations, and other sources of funding. (source: University of California's Annual Financial Report for the 2020 fiscal year)
As for the Athletic department, total operating revenue for the 2019-2020 academic year was approximately $106.4 million, which includes ticket sales, contributions, media rights, royalties, and other sources of income. (source: UC Berkeley's Equity in Athletics Data Analysis (EADA) report)
So I'm drawing the conclusion that "academic" and "cultural fit" are really more like polite euphemisms for the sheer scale at which R1's do the *business* of academics, and it clearly dwarfs the business of football.
Yup, conferences are just another way to describe the company one keeps. Athletics obviously represents big money but it's still just a fraction of the overall picture. It's similar to how pro sports team owners are typically billionaires from non-sport businesses, even if the team is worth a fortune.
Ohio St and Washington cancelling their home and home in 24-25 makes it seem like UW and probably UO are joining the B1G. Cal will be left behind and the entire athletics dept will wither on the vine. It wouldn’t shock me if the school drops football in 15-20 years.
USC and UCLA have yet to play any sports schedules as B1G members. It wouldn't surprise me to find that travel will have a negative impact on team performances in all sports and it drags down the overall performance and reputations of each school's athletic programs.
Give it five years. We might just see a reversal of USC's and UCLA's decision to leave the Pac-12. I'm not sure I'd bet against it, even if the money is insane.
Nebraska still hasn't recovered from its move to the B1G, so that could very well happen to SC and UCLA. But money drove those decisions and I expect will continue to drive the decision-making going forward. It's no small beans: We're talking $30-$40mil. more annually than any Pac-12 team will see. It's difficult to imagine any scenario in which the Pac-12 could close that financial gap enough to make it even a conversation starter.
Just to point out the travel burden that USC and UCLA will incur, the nearest B1G school to Los Angeles is Nebraska. The distance in air miles from LAX to LNK (Lincoln, NE) is 1,279 air miles, about 3 hours from gate to gate (maybe more on the return flight).
LAX to Ann Arbor is ~1,948 air miles flight time 4 hrs 12 mins.
LAX to Chicago is ~1,750 miles flight time 3 hrs 48 mins
LAX to University Park, PA ~2,244 miles flight time 4 hrs 46 mins
LAX to Newark, NJ ~2,453 miles flight time 5 hrs 8 mins
Compare and contrast with
LAX to Seattle, WA ~960 miles flight time 2 hrs 19 mins
LAX to Denver, CO ~843 miles flight time 2 hrs 5 mins
LAX to Salt Lake City ~584 miles flight time 1 hr 36 mins
LAX to Tucson, AZ ~447 miles, flight time 1 hr 20 mins
Fully agree. But what I read makes me believe the legislatures of both states are serious, because it's all about the money. Without UW, WASU's football program is dust and the school will wither, and without the Ducks, OSU is a community college. Think about it, right now WASU and OSU get equal shares of PAC12 revenue in dinky media markets. If their big brothers leave then they are left with literally nothing. The PAC12 members are going to fight to hold it together because of the money, especially knowing they won't get it anywhere else. And, as I understand, UCLA is going to be required by the UC Regents to give CAL between $5m to $10m annually. (If there is more up to date information that I have not been privy to that refutes this then I stand corrected).
Mr. Avi, aside from the academic part which I get, can you explain to me how a partner athletic school needs to be a "cultural" fit? So Cal and Stanford could never join the Big 12 because they don't fit in culturally with those red state schools in Texas and Oklahoma? Last time I checked, the U of T is in the liberal bastion of Austin. Or is it something else? I am really interested in this part.
It isn’t they the Pac12, Cal or Stanford wouldn’t take Texas. Cal and Stanford would gladly accept Texas in a heart beat as they fit in culturally and academically. Oklahoma would be a tough fit academically and culturally but they would take them with Texas.
It’s Baylor, TCU, and BYU that would be the probably and not due to the state that they are in but due to their religious affiliation.
Utah is in a ruby red state, UofA and ASU were also in solid red states at the time of expansion into the Pac8.
It isn’t about the states politics, as much as it is about the individual institutions.
It's also about the research designation. SMU is gunning for that R1 designation though are probably a little behind SDSU in that regard. Plus SMU severed ties with the United Methodist Church and successfully defended the separation in a lawsuit.
As for the Big 12 "cultural fit," there are a lot of teams we would TAKE from there (R1 universities without active religious affiliation) but we wouldn't JOIN the conference. Interestingly, merging Big 12 and the Pac was being discussed but it sounds like Big 12 blew it up.
BYU, as we know, is a school with a heavy religious affiliation and a church doctrine that reads like a fairy tale. I mean, battles being fought in South America with chariots flying around before the wheel was ever uncovered by archeologists on that continent. But man they fill up a football stadium and travel well. They are good for attendance and tv revenue. The last time I checked, the BYU/Utah rivalry was still strong and vibrant. Is that not what the conference wants and needs to continue big revenue sports, cultural fits be damned?
You cracked me up! This is a true Berkeley site that honors all forms of belief and religion and atheism, but some of the things said and believed to be true in the BOM or Koran or Old Testament are so silly it's hard not to laugh out loud. I'm in dangerous waters here, and apologize if even saying this is upsetting to our sensibilities. I find myself struggling to defend the rights of religion to believe absurdity when they are so vehemently trying to deny my rights to not share their beliefs. I won't mind if a moderator deletes this as too off topic.
As for BYU, aside from their religious affiliation, I would think it is up to Utah. If Utah wanted them in, I'd listen. I don't think the Pac should have an acid test for religious affiliation, anymore than we should with high level academics, cough OSU, cough WSU.
BYU also doesn’t play any sports on Sunday, which would be fine for football but difficult for non revenue sports. It’s a good fit for the Big12 but not the Pac12.
If hindsight, I am sure the Pac12 would have taken every Big 12 school not named Baylor, TCU or West Virginia (due to travel distance) last year if they knew ucla and USC were leaving.
I'm still holding out hope for Cal to be invited to join the Big 10. My only fear is that Clueless Carol will nix it because U can't C Berkeley from the midwest. Of course Oski would have to go, probably replaced by a Golden Doormat.
Neither of these schools really moves the needle with regards to expansion and potential TV money. Sure a roadie to Adam Diego and Dallas here and there will be cool, but the Big XII fucked us by jumping line to a new TV deal which essentially has reset the market value downwards. The PAC will not be getting anywhere near the $40M per school they had hoped for.
Yup. Kliavkoff never minces words when it comes to the Big 12. Best guess is that Yormark betrayed him (by trying to poach Pac schools) while the conferences were talking merger which genuinely pissed him off. If Yormark received a flaming poop bag on his doorstep there's no mystery in who sent it.
He wasn't given much to work with and I thought he was doing overall ok with the hand he was dealt. He had to be very careful about giving USC and UCLA "premium" membership so he wouldn't lose the rest of the conference. Maybe he played that wrong or maybe not, especially since we subsequently saw the Big 12's actions.
Things may have been recoverable if the Big 12 didn't go for the jugular, blowing up any sort of alliance AND signing a new media deal first. Yormark may have left some deal money on the table to stab the Pac in the back and I'm not sure there's any viable counter move so he can only sweeten the deal as much as he can.
I think the only way to win is if the Big 12 decided this wasn't a zero sum game. Kliavkoff tried that but Yormark didn't bite. It was a bit of a prisoner's dilemma scenario.
With Kevin Warren no longer the B1G commissioner, the four rumored PAC schools are no longer an option. He was the main force driving conference expansion at the behest of the B1G presidents. With him gone, they do not want to expand further.
Why do you think that? Are you aware that both WA and OR legislatures have made it known that if UW or the Ducks try and leave the PAC12 without WASU and the Beavers that they will create laws that don't allow the Dawgs or Ducks to leave without the Cougs or Beavs? And did yoo know that the media markets for both teams are not that great and there is no way the BIG10 would give either of them an equal share? And UW has said the same thing as CAL and Stanfurd: they won't subject their student athletes to the demand of the travel required as a result of the geography of the conference. Knowlton gave me an example last summer when I spoke with him. He said take womens tennis as an example. They won't fly back to Penn State for one match. They will go back and put together matches at three schools while they are back there. That will take up two weeks of time with travel to and from and in between matches. It's undoable for student athletes with the academic rigors of CAL, especially if they have aspirations of grad school. It doesn't matter at schools like USC and UCLA that have majors in circus acts, porn film making and clown shows.
I think Wilcox's agent let Knowlton know the terms that were necessary to keep WIlcox and I'm sure Knowlton told Wilcox he would try to get the package approved. I'm fairly certain that he had verbal agreement by those who needed to be in the loop but that getting the actual formal approval took time. I think that JW may have made a conditional acceptance for the Oregon job. He did ask for 24 hours to go home and think it over. I have no doubt that's when his agent called Knowlton and told him JW had a formal offer from the Ducks ( a dream job for any coach and perhaps even more for JW as an Oregon alum). But JW isn't just any coach. One of the reasons he is so popular is because he hare rare integrity. He had not finished building the program at CAL that he envisioned since he arrived and he felt like he had an unfulfilled commitment to get that project done. As you recall his his new deal gave him an extension and a raise, but the biggest part of it was the money he wanted for assistant coach salaries and recruiting. And, he got it. I'm a huge fan of JW and have become more so over time, even with our lack of success. I truly don't know any other coach that we could bring in at CAL, with all of our internal CAL politics and issues, who would do better. And I say that because while there are some great coaches with cache out there, I just don't think CAL would ever hire them.
And, to conclude, the agreement was met. JW received his extension, raise and the additional dollars he requested for assistant coaches and recruiting.
I think it's important. I think it sets a standard for the quality of the student athlete, and I think it sets a standard of excellence that goes way beyond football. I'm fairly sure that what is going on with the SMU discussions is Kliavfoff has told SMU if they want an invitation to join the PAC then the PAC wants a written plan of how SMU will become a Tier 1 university. The Dallas market is great, and some branding could really turn SMU into a solid media school, but they need the academics as well.
So... what's the vibe that Rice isn't considered for PAC-12? I used to work there, and it's not anyone's version of a competitive football team; the basketball team goes up and down; baseball hasn't been the same since Graham retired. But, the academics are what everyone has wanted: R1, and money falling out of the pockets of donors. Thoughts?
SMU has that very path on their website. That, plus the disaffiliation from the Methodist Church, made them candidates. However, wouldn't have merited a look even 5 years ago.
I think that's right. Fresno State doesn't bring a big media market. They don't bring LA, and the Central Valley media market is small. Honestly, the only reason why I can see Fresno State having any cachet for the Big XII is that it's in California. If the Big XII invites Fresno State, they should also take a hard look at San Jose State. At least SJSU is actually in the Bay Area.
If you're talking the Central Valley from Stockton to Bakersfield that's over 1-2 million people, if I calculate rightly. Many alums of Fresno state scattered in that area, plus it's the only D1 football in the entire Valley.
Apparently the PAC12 does not want to dilute the CA media market, especially the Bay Area with the top media market left in the PAC12. Also, Fresno is not tier 1 academic institution which has been a requirement for membership in the PAC12.
I'm really not sure that I understand why being a tier 1 academic institution is relevant. Really, why does that have to be a requirement? I don't see how Fresno or UCSD or Boise State being in the same athletic conference despite their lower academic/research profile would have a negative effect on those with higher profiles. Those are all good institutions serving important functions; why can't we play sports with them?
I think SDSU is very close to obtaining that status. Agree about SMU and it may be a dealbreaker. Like I said, Kliavkoff may have told them admission is subject to them providing a plan to obtain that status within a certain period of time.
Given the expansion option, it may only be a matter of when, not if, UO and UW leave the conference. Will it happen before expansion? Or in three to five years when the next media rights cycle happens? Barring a miracle bag of cash dropping from the sky into Kliakoff's lap, the spectre of the potential for UW and UO leaving is always going to be hanging over the conference and making the other schools potentially trigger happy if they can find more security elsewhere (ie., Big 12).
They are also a joke academically and in every other sport. They’ll never be a candidate for the Pac-12/10/8/whatever.
You may disagree but these schools want to be associated with other high quality schools and adding Boise would (in the eyes of the presidents) mean choosing to dilute their brand with a school not even cracking national rankings.
I teach at Cal and it's kind of funny to me when people refer to other universities or colleges as jokes. Yes, on the whole they are easier and less competitive than Cal, no doubt. But, haven't you met really smart people who've gone to these institutions and really stupid people who've gone to Cal or taught at Cal? The college experience is largely what the individual makes of it. Often non-R1 institutions have better teachers than Cal, because Cal's teachers are primarily concerned with publishing and getting grants, etc. Often brilliant students attend 'lesser' institutions because of cost, location, or other reasons. Are they reading a lesser Shakespeare or studying biology at a Schoolhouse Rock level? This kind of snobbish comment indicates that Cal doesn't always do such a great job at educating its students.
Boise State has so much more support from its community than Cal does. The general attitude in the bay area towards Cal sports is indifference. You see a lot of support for BSU here. I think that one strike against BSU would be its relatively small stadium size of 36,000. (they averaged 35,121 for their six 2022 regular season games)? Would Cal be allowed to play in all blue uniforms on their blue turf? There are plans to expand their stadium: https://boisedev.com/news/2022/11/07/boise-state-stadium-north/
Conferences are still ultimately about schools with faculty, donors, etc., who have opinions and control dollars. Conferences are still about deciding what company you keep and not just arbitrary divisions.
That being said, I am not sure why UNLV isn't more on the table. Vegas is the #40 market, an R1 uni, the Pac already plays the basketball tourney there, and fans would love an excuse to go to Vegas.
Being an alum of Stanford and USC I believe in the end CAL and UNLV will be in the same conference. USC and UCLA will be headed to the BIG, UA, ASU, UU, CU will be headed to the BIG 12, UO and UW will be headed to BIG or BIG 12 and Stanford will end up in BIG, BIG 12 or ACC. CAL, WSU, OSU will join their peers Fresno State, SDSU, San Jose State, Hawaii, UNLV UNR, USU, UNM, CSU, Airforce and Boise State in the NEW PAC
Stanford and USC which are both private elite schools have more in common with each other than public schools like CAL who are dictated who to accept. CAL like Fresno State, San Jose State and San Diego State all being state schools have a common bond and belong together along with Boise State, Washington State, Oregon State, UNLV and Nevada. The rest of the PAC 12 will head a to the BIG12, BIG and perhaps the ACC.
There are a lot of scenarios where the Pac blows up like this and everyone scatters. Furd and Cal would probably go together to B1G in that scenario, or both will end up in the New Pac (basically the MWC and WAC remnants). UO and UW would definitely go to B1G. WSU and OSU would probably go New Pac, though there's a chance at B1G or Big 12.
Either way, the complete explosion of a major conference would setup a wild free agency with a lot of new media money in play.
I would suggest looking into this issue with the B1G and AAU membership (search it). That's probably where you will find the most discussion about this.
Might also be helpful to think about this like high school leagues. The little religious school does not usually play the largest public schools; they tend to put similarly sized schools together. As a college analogy, I think Gonzaga is a much better fit for the WCC (in terms of size, student body, focus) than it would be in the Pac-12 or Mountain West.
More generally, I think there are many things about universities that the public does not understand. For example, most people tend to equate academic excellence with selectivity when, in reality, almost all land grant institutions have excellent faculty (because there are a lot more smart people with PhDs than there are tenure-track positions). To say that a school like Oklahoma (or Oklahoma State) would not fit academically demonstrates how naïve people are about the quality of most universities.
Once heard how one Oklahoma University President addressed a gathering saying, "I hope one day we will have a university our football team can be proud of." Of course, OU is no slacker and quite good, but all people know is the football team.
Being a USC/STANFORD alum, I look forward to USC in the BIG 10 and I believe Stanford will also end up in either the BIG 10, BIG 12 or possibly ACC.I also look forward to CAL being in a league with their peers, San Jose State, Fresno State, SDSU, UNLV, UNR, Boise State, Hawaii, OSU, WSU, Wyoming, New Mexico, CSU and Airforce and USU.
You're repeating yourself, perhaps you should run for the Senate.
Screw pac 12. Always snubbing boise state. Fits perfectly with its northwest location. Great football school! Tulane , smu,. Really. Even sandiego state. No one cares about them on a national level. People on national scale like boise state. They follow them. Yet pac 12 isn't interested. Fresno has great football program as well. Pac 12 leadership is not doing the conference justice. The decisions they are making will ruin the con ference. They would have a .much better chance to get a media deal done if they added boise and fresno.
I am a bear of little brain who also has been wondering just why in the hell do the academics or cultural fit matter when it comes to deciding who you are going to play football with?
But it's kind of starting to dawn on me (or perhaps I'm starting to remember) that the University of California at Berkeley is also a kind of *business*, just like its football team is a kind of *business*.
The University of California at Berkeley's total operating revenue in 2020 was approximately $3.1 BILLION, which includes not only tuition and fees but also government grants, donations, and other sources of funding. (source: University of California's Annual Financial Report for the 2020 fiscal year)
As for the Athletic department, total operating revenue for the 2019-2020 academic year was approximately $106.4 million, which includes ticket sales, contributions, media rights, royalties, and other sources of income. (source: UC Berkeley's Equity in Athletics Data Analysis (EADA) report)
So I'm drawing the conclusion that "academic" and "cultural fit" are really more like polite euphemisms for the sheer scale at which R1's do the *business* of academics, and it clearly dwarfs the business of football.
Yup, conferences are just another way to describe the company one keeps. Athletics obviously represents big money but it's still just a fraction of the overall picture. It's similar to how pro sports team owners are typically billionaires from non-sport businesses, even if the team is worth a fortune.
Ohio St and Washington cancelling their home and home in 24-25 makes it seem like UW and probably UO are joining the B1G. Cal will be left behind and the entire athletics dept will wither on the vine. It wouldn’t shock me if the school drops football in 15-20 years.
Can anyone provide me the explanation for CSU being considered? I live in Fort Collins so I’m all for it!
USC and UCLA have yet to play any sports schedules as B1G members. It wouldn't surprise me to find that travel will have a negative impact on team performances in all sports and it drags down the overall performance and reputations of each school's athletic programs.
Give it five years. We might just see a reversal of USC's and UCLA's decision to leave the Pac-12. I'm not sure I'd bet against it, even if the money is insane.
Nebraska still hasn't recovered from its move to the B1G, so that could very well happen to SC and UCLA. But money drove those decisions and I expect will continue to drive the decision-making going forward. It's no small beans: We're talking $30-$40mil. more annually than any Pac-12 team will see. It's difficult to imagine any scenario in which the Pac-12 could close that financial gap enough to make it even a conversation starter.
Just to point out the travel burden that USC and UCLA will incur, the nearest B1G school to Los Angeles is Nebraska. The distance in air miles from LAX to LNK (Lincoln, NE) is 1,279 air miles, about 3 hours from gate to gate (maybe more on the return flight).
LAX to Ann Arbor is ~1,948 air miles flight time 4 hrs 12 mins.
LAX to Chicago is ~1,750 miles flight time 3 hrs 48 mins
LAX to University Park, PA ~2,244 miles flight time 4 hrs 46 mins
LAX to Newark, NJ ~2,453 miles flight time 5 hrs 8 mins
Compare and contrast with
LAX to Seattle, WA ~960 miles flight time 2 hrs 19 mins
LAX to Denver, CO ~843 miles flight time 2 hrs 5 mins
LAX to Salt Lake City ~584 miles flight time 1 hr 36 mins
LAX to Tucson, AZ ~447 miles, flight time 1 hr 20 mins
LAX to OAK ~343 miles, flight time 1 hr 8 mins
You do the math.
Then there's the equipment transport.
That's more studying time on the plane!
Yes, yes it is. That's probably the best use of the added travel time. That and sleeping.
Fully agree. But what I read makes me believe the legislatures of both states are serious, because it's all about the money. Without UW, WASU's football program is dust and the school will wither, and without the Ducks, OSU is a community college. Think about it, right now WASU and OSU get equal shares of PAC12 revenue in dinky media markets. If their big brothers leave then they are left with literally nothing. The PAC12 members are going to fight to hold it together because of the money, especially knowing they won't get it anywhere else. And, as I understand, UCLA is going to be required by the UC Regents to give CAL between $5m to $10m annually. (If there is more up to date information that I have not been privy to that refutes this then I stand corrected).
True, but in the case of WASU and OSU in the PAC12 it could come down to survival.
Mr. Avi, aside from the academic part which I get, can you explain to me how a partner athletic school needs to be a "cultural" fit? So Cal and Stanford could never join the Big 12 because they don't fit in culturally with those red state schools in Texas and Oklahoma? Last time I checked, the U of T is in the liberal bastion of Austin. Or is it something else? I am really interested in this part.
It isn’t they the Pac12, Cal or Stanford wouldn’t take Texas. Cal and Stanford would gladly accept Texas in a heart beat as they fit in culturally and academically. Oklahoma would be a tough fit academically and culturally but they would take them with Texas.
It’s Baylor, TCU, and BYU that would be the probably and not due to the state that they are in but due to their religious affiliation.
Utah is in a ruby red state, UofA and ASU were also in solid red states at the time of expansion into the Pac8.
It isn’t about the states politics, as much as it is about the individual institutions.
It's also about the research designation. SMU is gunning for that R1 designation though are probably a little behind SDSU in that regard. Plus SMU severed ties with the United Methodist Church and successfully defended the separation in a lawsuit.
As for the Big 12 "cultural fit," there are a lot of teams we would TAKE from there (R1 universities without active religious affiliation) but we wouldn't JOIN the conference. Interestingly, merging Big 12 and the Pac was being discussed but it sounds like Big 12 blew it up.
BYU, as we know, is a school with a heavy religious affiliation and a church doctrine that reads like a fairy tale. I mean, battles being fought in South America with chariots flying around before the wheel was ever uncovered by archeologists on that continent. But man they fill up a football stadium and travel well. They are good for attendance and tv revenue. The last time I checked, the BYU/Utah rivalry was still strong and vibrant. Is that not what the conference wants and needs to continue big revenue sports, cultural fits be damned?
You cracked me up! This is a true Berkeley site that honors all forms of belief and religion and atheism, but some of the things said and believed to be true in the BOM or Koran or Old Testament are so silly it's hard not to laugh out loud. I'm in dangerous waters here, and apologize if even saying this is upsetting to our sensibilities. I find myself struggling to defend the rights of religion to believe absurdity when they are so vehemently trying to deny my rights to not share their beliefs. I won't mind if a moderator deletes this as too off topic.
As for BYU, aside from their religious affiliation, I would think it is up to Utah. If Utah wanted them in, I'd listen. I don't think the Pac should have an acid test for religious affiliation, anymore than we should with high level academics, cough OSU, cough WSU.
BYU also doesn’t play any sports on Sunday, which would be fine for football but difficult for non revenue sports. It’s a good fit for the Big12 but not the Pac12.
What do they do on Sundays, race chariots??
Heavy soaking.
I think UoUtah killed any chance of BYU joining. BYU also isn't an R1 university. It really is a good fit for the Big 12, though.
If hindsight, I am sure the Pac12 would have taken every Big 12 school not named Baylor, TCU or West Virginia (due to travel distance) last year if they knew ucla and USC were leaving.
UT and OU were off the table. But Texas Tech, Oklahoma State, and the Kansases would fit. Iowa State would also be a stretch.
Obviously UT and OU were already off the table, that’s why I didn’t mention them. Iowa State would have been a bit of a stretch in terms of travel.
I'm still holding out hope for Cal to be invited to join the Big 10. My only fear is that Clueless Carol will nix it because U can't C Berkeley from the midwest. Of course Oski would have to go, probably replaced by a Golden Doormat.
Oski would have to go because of Minnesota's "oski wow wow"?
Oski going is a non-starter.
Neither of these schools really moves the needle with regards to expansion and potential TV money. Sure a roadie to Adam Diego and Dallas here and there will be cool, but the Big XII fucked us by jumping line to a new TV deal which essentially has reset the market value downwards. The PAC will not be getting anywhere near the $40M per school they had hoped for.
Yup. Kliavkoff never minces words when it comes to the Big 12. Best guess is that Yormark betrayed him (by trying to poach Pac schools) while the conferences were talking merger which genuinely pissed him off. If Yormark received a flaming poop bag on his doorstep there's no mystery in who sent it.
Kliavkoff has now been absolutely worked by USC, UCLA, and the entire Big 12.
I stand corrected - maybe this guy is a total clown.
He wasn't given much to work with and I thought he was doing overall ok with the hand he was dealt. He had to be very careful about giving USC and UCLA "premium" membership so he wouldn't lose the rest of the conference. Maybe he played that wrong or maybe not, especially since we subsequently saw the Big 12's actions.
Things may have been recoverable if the Big 12 didn't go for the jugular, blowing up any sort of alliance AND signing a new media deal first. Yormark may have left some deal money on the table to stab the Pac in the back and I'm not sure there's any viable counter move so he can only sweeten the deal as much as he can.
He's in a tough spot. He's paying for Larry Scott's sins. We all are.
Agreed…Larry Scott was brutal. Still, Kliavkoff seems to be getting blindsided by plenty of things…
I think the only way to win is if the Big 12 decided this wasn't a zero sum game. Kliavkoff tried that but Yormark didn't bite. It was a bit of a prisoner's dilemma scenario.
I'm fine with adding anyone.
I'm sure Oregon and Washington won't be here long and Cal may exit too.
Where are they going to go?
Because the new Pac12 sucks!
Oops I read that wrong.
They are going somewhere. Not Pac12
Well that narrows it down. ;-)
Not Mountain West either.
I still think Oregon and UW to Big-1X. And eventually Cal and Furd, if both accept. Like UCLA, I don't see how Cal can reject the money.
With Kevin Warren no longer the B1G commissioner, the four rumored PAC schools are no longer an option. He was the main force driving conference expansion at the behest of the B1G presidents. With him gone, they do not want to expand further.
Why do you think that? Are you aware that both WA and OR legislatures have made it known that if UW or the Ducks try and leave the PAC12 without WASU and the Beavers that they will create laws that don't allow the Dawgs or Ducks to leave without the Cougs or Beavs? And did yoo know that the media markets for both teams are not that great and there is no way the BIG10 would give either of them an equal share? And UW has said the same thing as CAL and Stanfurd: they won't subject their student athletes to the demand of the travel required as a result of the geography of the conference. Knowlton gave me an example last summer when I spoke with him. He said take womens tennis as an example. They won't fly back to Penn State for one match. They will go back and put together matches at three schools while they are back there. That will take up two weeks of time with travel to and from and in between matches. It's undoable for student athletes with the academic rigors of CAL, especially if they have aspirations of grad school. It doesn't matter at schools like USC and UCLA that have majors in circus acts, porn film making and clown shows.
I think Wilcox's agent let Knowlton know the terms that were necessary to keep WIlcox and I'm sure Knowlton told Wilcox he would try to get the package approved. I'm fairly certain that he had verbal agreement by those who needed to be in the loop but that getting the actual formal approval took time. I think that JW may have made a conditional acceptance for the Oregon job. He did ask for 24 hours to go home and think it over. I have no doubt that's when his agent called Knowlton and told him JW had a formal offer from the Ducks ( a dream job for any coach and perhaps even more for JW as an Oregon alum). But JW isn't just any coach. One of the reasons he is so popular is because he hare rare integrity. He had not finished building the program at CAL that he envisioned since he arrived and he felt like he had an unfulfilled commitment to get that project done. As you recall his his new deal gave him an extension and a raise, but the biggest part of it was the money he wanted for assistant coach salaries and recruiting. And, he got it. I'm a huge fan of JW and have become more so over time, even with our lack of success. I truly don't know any other coach that we could bring in at CAL, with all of our internal CAL politics and issues, who would do better. And I say that because while there are some great coaches with cache out there, I just don't think CAL would ever hire them.
And, to conclude, the agreement was met. JW received his extension, raise and the additional dollars he requested for assistant coaches and recruiting.
I think it's important. I think it sets a standard for the quality of the student athlete, and I think it sets a standard of excellence that goes way beyond football. I'm fairly sure that what is going on with the SMU discussions is Kliavfoff has told SMU if they want an invitation to join the PAC then the PAC wants a written plan of how SMU will become a Tier 1 university. The Dallas market is great, and some branding could really turn SMU into a solid media school, but they need the academics as well.
So... what's the vibe that Rice isn't considered for PAC-12? I used to work there, and it's not anyone's version of a competitive football team; the basketball team goes up and down; baseball hasn't been the same since Graham retired. But, the academics are what everyone has wanted: R1, and money falling out of the pockets of donors. Thoughts?
SMU has that very path on their website. That, plus the disaffiliation from the Methodist Church, made them candidates. However, wouldn't have merited a look even 5 years ago.
https://www.smu.edu/Research/Road-to-R1
Out of everyone, I trust Rugbear's analysis the best. Some are too cynical and others are too rosy
So, Fresno State is suitable for the Big 12 and not us.
I think that's right. Fresno State doesn't bring a big media market. They don't bring LA, and the Central Valley media market is small. Honestly, the only reason why I can see Fresno State having any cachet for the Big XII is that it's in California. If the Big XII invites Fresno State, they should also take a hard look at San Jose State. At least SJSU is actually in the Bay Area.
If you're talking the Central Valley from Stockton to Bakersfield that's over 1-2 million people, if I calculate rightly. Many alums of Fresno state scattered in that area, plus it's the only D1 football in the entire Valley.
Apparently the PAC12 does not want to dilute the CA media market, especially the Bay Area with the top media market left in the PAC12. Also, Fresno is not tier 1 academic institution which has been a requirement for membership in the PAC12.
I'm really not sure that I understand why being a tier 1 academic institution is relevant. Really, why does that have to be a requirement? I don't see how Fresno or UCSD or Boise State being in the same athletic conference despite their lower academic/research profile would have a negative effect on those with higher profiles. Those are all good institutions serving important functions; why can't we play sports with them?
SD State is also not a top-tier institution. Nor is SMU. I think we're out of the top tier institution market.
I think SDSU is very close to obtaining that status. Agree about SMU and it may be a dealbreaker. Like I said, Kliavkoff may have told them admission is subject to them providing a plan to obtain that status within a certain period of time.
Feels like any scenario is nearly as likely as the next, including the conference blowing up.
Given the expansion option, it may only be a matter of when, not if, UO and UW leave the conference. Will it happen before expansion? Or in three to five years when the next media rights cycle happens? Barring a miracle bag of cash dropping from the sky into Kliakoff's lap, the spectre of the potential for UW and UO leaving is always going to be hanging over the conference and making the other schools potentially trigger happy if they can find more security elsewhere (ie., Big 12).
Yeah, I agree with all this. It is just a matter of time until the Pac12 blows up.
They are also a joke academically and in every other sport. They’ll never be a candidate for the Pac-12/10/8/whatever.
You may disagree but these schools want to be associated with other high quality schools and adding Boise would (in the eyes of the presidents) mean choosing to dilute their brand with a school not even cracking national rankings.
I teach at Cal and it's kind of funny to me when people refer to other universities or colleges as jokes. Yes, on the whole they are easier and less competitive than Cal, no doubt. But, haven't you met really smart people who've gone to these institutions and really stupid people who've gone to Cal or taught at Cal? The college experience is largely what the individual makes of it. Often non-R1 institutions have better teachers than Cal, because Cal's teachers are primarily concerned with publishing and getting grants, etc. Often brilliant students attend 'lesser' institutions because of cost, location, or other reasons. Are they reading a lesser Shakespeare or studying biology at a Schoolhouse Rock level? This kind of snobbish comment indicates that Cal doesn't always do such a great job at educating its students.
Okay, they’ve historically been awful at every other sport. They’ve had a nice run the last couple years in basketball.
Doesn’t change the fact they add zero in terms of market are are so far below academic standards that even the Big 12 won’t touch them.
Boise State has so much more support from its community than Cal does. The general attitude in the bay area towards Cal sports is indifference. You see a lot of support for BSU here. I think that one strike against BSU would be its relatively small stadium size of 36,000. (they averaged 35,121 for their six 2022 regular season games)? Would Cal be allowed to play in all blue uniforms on their blue turf? There are plans to expand their stadium: https://boisedev.com/news/2022/11/07/boise-state-stadium-north/
Conferences are still ultimately about schools with faculty, donors, etc., who have opinions and control dollars. Conferences are still about deciding what company you keep and not just arbitrary divisions.
That being said, I am not sure why UNLV isn't more on the table. Vegas is the #40 market, an R1 uni, the Pac already plays the basketball tourney there, and fans would love an excuse to go to Vegas.
Being an alum of Stanford and USC I believe in the end CAL and UNLV will be in the same conference. USC and UCLA will be headed to the BIG, UA, ASU, UU, CU will be headed to the BIG 12, UO and UW will be headed to BIG or BIG 12 and Stanford will end up in BIG, BIG 12 or ACC. CAL, WSU, OSU will join their peers Fresno State, SDSU, San Jose State, Hawaii, UNLV UNR, USU, UNM, CSU, Airforce and Boise State in the NEW PAC
Wow StanfUrd and U$C...that's like a double dose of a$$hole.
Stanford and USC which are both private elite schools have more in common with each other than public schools like CAL who are dictated who to accept. CAL like Fresno State, San Jose State and San Diego State all being state schools have a common bond and belong together along with Boise State, Washington State, Oregon State, UNLV and Nevada. The rest of the PAC 12 will head a to the BIG12, BIG and perhaps the ACC.
I propose the snotty A$$hole league!
StanfUrd
U$C
Rice
Northwestern
Tulane
Vanderbilt
Duke
Notre Dame
Miami
Syracuse
Boston College
*mic drop
Nailed it.
I believe the term they prefer is "blue blood," but a snotty a$$h**le by any other name is... a snotty a$$hole.
You can get a contract with Bravo or E.
There are a lot of scenarios where the Pac blows up like this and everyone scatters. Furd and Cal would probably go together to B1G in that scenario, or both will end up in the New Pac (basically the MWC and WAC remnants). UO and UW would definitely go to B1G. WSU and OSU would probably go New Pac, though there's a chance at B1G or Big 12.
Either way, the complete explosion of a major conference would setup a wild free agency with a lot of new media money in play.
I would suggest looking into this issue with the B1G and AAU membership (search it). That's probably where you will find the most discussion about this.
Might also be helpful to think about this like high school leagues. The little religious school does not usually play the largest public schools; they tend to put similarly sized schools together. As a college analogy, I think Gonzaga is a much better fit for the WCC (in terms of size, student body, focus) than it would be in the Pac-12 or Mountain West.
More generally, I think there are many things about universities that the public does not understand. For example, most people tend to equate academic excellence with selectivity when, in reality, almost all land grant institutions have excellent faculty (because there are a lot more smart people with PhDs than there are tenure-track positions). To say that a school like Oklahoma (or Oklahoma State) would not fit academically demonstrates how naïve people are about the quality of most universities.
Once heard how one Oklahoma University President addressed a gathering saying, "I hope one day we will have a university our football team can be proud of." Of course, OU is no slacker and quite good, but all people know is the football team.