Time to try a different tack. The money is still good this season, there is time to rebuild, and we might be able to roll out a conference with new members still with a slot at the FBS playoff in year two according to what I've read.
Not likely, they have 4 West Coast teams , they really didn’t need Oregon but I’m sure Knight used his capital to get them to admit them, they added Washington so there’d be a travel partner.
Cal is going to have to make Chicken salad out of chicken S&$/.
I can't think of a plausible scenario where we remain outside one of the four big leagues and still make enough money to make ends meet. We may be stuck with something like that in the end, but any B1G/Big 12/ACC invite would be better than anything outside those leagues. (I think it's safe to leave the SEC out here.)
They’re going to have to think outside the box way outside the box. They’re going to have to find a network that needs programming, I’m surprised they can’t get a deal with CBS. They should try to convince them to do a $300 million a year deal. They could broadcast the Saturday games on CBS then the weekday games on the CW. They should also approach Musk about broadcasting on his platform, $300 million a year is seat cushion money to him.
Right, it is like CFB realignment Ground Hogs Day with that thinking. That strategy proved so successful in Oklahoma, Oregon, Washington, California and Texas.
Anything other than joining one of the big 4 conferences will be a massive failure, and at this point that seems to be the most likely outcome. Feel terrible for the players, they couldn’t have anticipated this when committing to cal and I would be surprised if the majority weren’t thinking about transferring when the portal opens up next cycle.
Knowlton needs to be fired asap, although unfortunately it won’t change the programs outcome at this point as the damage is likely irreversible.
There's a chance Pac4 remains to exist which is not good. We might have to work as a package of 4 and makes it harder to move than a package of just us and Furd.
But this guy is probably more capable than Knowlton and Christ.
Sure it’s a step up in leadership, as Christ and Knowlton are bumbling f-ing idiots and Kliavkoff has already been bumped aside…unfortunately the bomb has already gone off and the time to have brought Luck in was in the last 12 months when you were still 10 teams. What TF is Luck going to advise them now, as all the options are bad.
Also, now being a package deal with OSU and Wazzu means joining the ACC/Big12/B1G are out…which means we’re a mid-major…which means the Athletic Department is dead…which means none of it really matters.
Agreed, Cal and Stanford might have a tiny amount of juice to a conference looking to get into the bay area market, adding Wash State and Oregon State to that doesn’t help.
Plus, it remains to be seen what other schools would even be joining the 4…you’re not getting any from the MWC anytime soon for that current exit fee…it’s likely a short term fix, because plenty have voiced concern that Stanford specifically, and maybe Cal, would leave for the B1G. The AAC is a wash with the MWC because the increased.
I want the conference saved if there's actually some sort of monetary/geographical benefit in it, but I don't want it to continue if Kliavkoff is retained, bottom line. His ouster with no severance should be the first requirement of any deal. (it won't be, but I can pretend.)
Remaining with OSU/Wazzu, while ostensibly noble and in all likelihood their only remaining move, puts us on the mid-major track and almost assuredly strips whatever remains of the Conference of any Group of 5 rights/status. The $$$, which already didn’t really fit even in the past few years of the P12, means you’re cutting multiple sports, reducing rosters, limiting schedules, etc.
While Kliavkoff is undoubtedly a boob, the leaders at USC, UCLA, Colorado, Oregon and Washington are all just as much to blame.
I wonder if he's lamenting his incompetence for causing what happened, or if he's just laughing that he doesn't have to do anything because he has no attachment to Pac12.
Look, I am no fan of Kliavkoff…I gave him a chance, considering the mess Larry Scott left him with. But like Rob Manfred, Kliavkoff really just works at the behest of his bosses, and they’re the ones that hired a guy with NO experience in college athletics for a second consecutive time…he didn’t unilaterally nix TV deals on his own.
He did get absolutely worked by Yormark…it’s just that there’s plenty of blame to go around…
I’m looking forward to the board game made by some European that doesn’t know the first thing about the sport of football. Maybe part monopoly, part bidding like spades, and part prisoner’s dilemma game theory.
“Wait, you said you were staying but now you’re cashing out”?
“Sorry, I was secretly holding the opt-out at discount card”.
Hard to believe they'd prefer OSU/WSU to us and Stanford, unless we told them up front that we weren't interested. Which would be stupid and completely unsurprising.
I think Cal joining the ACC would be crazy, Cal likely wouldn’t get a full media revenue share for quite some time. They also would be locked into a grant of right agreement for 12 years, so if things go bad they won’t be able to exit.
I’ll reiterate that they should immediately take SMU, Rice and even try for Texas-San Antonio and perhaps New Mexico State then next summer figure out which Mountain West schools want to leave when the exit fee is only 17 million.
the problem is that whatever league we can cobble together woudl be a mid-major with mid-major media rights. The MWC is in the $5m range, teh AAC is $7m. And those numbers are far, far below what we need to maintain 30 sports and payoff CMS.
It doesn’t have to be if those schools compete. Boise State was able to compete in 2008 Appalachian State has been able to consistently compete since they beat Michigan. It’s about whoever is the conference is representative in the college football playoff to do well in playing the big 10 & big 12 schools. Start winning those games and all of the sudden you start getting better players and you re-emerge as as power conference.
you are missing the point. Unless the Regents/taxpyaers are gonna bail us out, we will not survive long enough on mid-major pay to emerge as a power conference team. Teh MWC payout would not even cover Wilcox' salary
What OC said... neither the MWC nor AAC payments would cover the mortgage on Memorial. Players would have to use their NIL money to travel to games, wash their uniforms...
I guess there would be some appeal if you told me Cal football would be a powerhouse in the Mountain West, like a mid 2000’s Boise state but once 80 percent of the athletic departments funding disappears I suspect we’d find equilibrium as an average to below average MWC conference team trying to scratch out six or seven wins so we can play in the New Mexico Bowl and call our season a success.
As an alum and a fan that has zero appeal to me, none.
Apologies if this has been referenced previously, but Cal had more average viewers per football game in 2022 than North Carolina, Syracuse, Georgia Tech, Wake Forest, Louisville, Boston College, MIAMI, Virginia Tech, Virginia and Duke.
Stanford averaged more viewers than all of those same schools except for UNC.
And when you consider that Pac-12 Network games counted as zero in this ranking, our real numbers must be higher. (Yeah, I know the P12 Network viewership probably sucked, but it was more than ZERO.)
Any chance the MWC could break or renegotiate their media contract if they take the remaining Pac-4...maybe with an SMU on top? Honestly rather play those teams as opposed to the AAC (if the ACC route goes poof).
ACC wise, It’s the 4 schools that want OUT that are No’s to the addition of the CA schools. Florida State/Clemson (SEC-bound??) and UNC/UVA (B1G bound??).
What if we ask SMU if they can subsidize our lunch? We get the subsidy we need and they buy themselves into the big boys table?
Does anyone know if the departing PAC schools get a payout from the playoff? What if $C wins the natty this year? Does the revenue belong to the remaining PAC 4 schools?
I have seen a lot of numbers thrown around, but not sure any of them have been confirmed as legitimate. Some say that PAC-12 has a $100M emergency fund. I have even seen $400M thrown around (I think that includes money that is owed to the other teams, but that we could potentially try and hang onto with the help of some lawyers). The flip side is we also had that Comcast overpayment issue. I read that reimbursement is coming directly out of the individual schools shares so the overpayment issue may not be a huge deal. But to be clear, this is all just sourced from random internet comments. It is hard to know how much truth is there. I think the range of possibilities include the PAC-12 being flush with cash to being heavily in the red. Would be nice to know where things stand, and hopefully our AD's have that info.
Regardless, If we can shake out $400M in loose change from the PAC-12 couch cushions, that could dramatically change the outlook of revitalizing the PAC-12. One of the biggest roadblocks right now is the lack of "free agents", almost all teams are locked into a conference deal that requires a hefty buyout to exit. And from my understanding, we need to get to 8 teams to have a viable conference. If we can dangle some cash in front of a few teams, or maybe a loan, we might be able to pry a few teams loose to join us. Alternatively, we apply for an exception from the NCAA and we use the cash to shore up the individual teams budgets while we wait for the some teams to become free agents in the next year or two.
EDIT: I also like the idea of getting SMU involved, simply for the fact that money does not matter to them at all. If we can convince them to forfeit their share of any media deal that appears, in exchange we could use that money to help with buyouts. While I would prefer to try and keep PAC-12 mostly on the west coast, some CA/Texas rivalries could generate some fan interest.
I may be mistaken but I think we only need to have 6 teams to remain a viable power conference. It sounds like the only thing that is certain at this point is that we owe Comcast 50 mil. for over payments. I have not heard of a PAC 12 emergency fund with numbers as high as you have mentioned. Wilner wrote an article a few years back about a PAC 12 emergency fund which he said stood at about 20mil at the time. (I will link it below) If this is the case we may very well be in the red.
If that's true and it works I will change my name to something negative about U$C and I will spell Stanfurd with an "o". Honestly never felt this must solidarity with Stanfurd before...but strange things happen when you are stranded at sea in a small boat. Then again, I still don't trust them: they could decide to go independent and live us hanging (which would be understandable but unfortunate).
I think we spend way more time focused on our rivalry than do most Furdies. I guess a lifeboat works because neither of us can eat the other to survive. Otherwise, we'd be slicing up a nice big tree and with our Axe, of course.
The ones who seem ready to bolt the conference as soon as they can are almost certainly holding out. That would be Clemson and FSU for sure, then maybe Miami, UNC, VaTech, Virginia. Hard to say which.
I saw one rumor-monger guy on Twitter claim that NC State and VaTech are the two holdouts most likely to flip, but if the vote is close then I am surprised if NC State is in that group.
Isn't there a deadline at the end of this month for when they could exit? (and pay 150 million) Assuming Clemson and FSU manage to figure out the financials and exit the conference, do the remaining schools immediately try to bring in the PAC?
Well, I think it is now done and the doors have all closed for Cal. I have accepted our inevitable fate as a MWC member.
Wednesday: 2 votes short
Friday: 1 Vote short
Monday: ???
EDIT: Never mind. Doooooooom!
Monday we will probably be 6 votes short.
Eeyore, is that you?
Time to try a different tack. The money is still good this season, there is time to rebuild, and we might be able to roll out a conference with new members still with a slot at the FBS playoff in year two according to what I've read.
So what's next.
Now that they know they can get us on a bargain, would Big 10 or Big 12 come offer us at $20 million?
Not likely, they have 4 West Coast teams , they really didn’t need Oregon but I’m sure Knight used his capital to get them to admit them, they added Washington so there’d be a travel partner.
Cal is going to have to make Chicken salad out of chicken S&$/.
I can't think of a plausible scenario where we remain outside one of the four big leagues and still make enough money to make ends meet. We may be stuck with something like that in the end, but any B1G/Big 12/ACC invite would be better than anything outside those leagues. (I think it's safe to leave the SEC out here.)
They’re going to have to think outside the box way outside the box. They’re going to have to find a network that needs programming, I’m surprised they can’t get a deal with CBS. They should try to convince them to do a $300 million a year deal. They could broadcast the Saturday games on CBS then the weekday games on the CW. They should also approach Musk about broadcasting on his platform, $300 million a year is seat cushion money to him.
F0ck You NC State
They voted?
Can’t even get to one. Clem/FSU/UNC all holding out, along with NCSU…
Which is funny because NC State isn’t going anywhere.
NC State will be the OSU/WSU of the ACC when it collapses. The B1G and SEC won’t want them. They will go from ACC to AAC.
Love the clowns thinking the NC legislature will prevent UNC/NC State from getting split. Ha…good luck.
There really are some idiots running these schools. Unreal.
Right, it is like CFB realignment Ground Hogs Day with that thinking. That strategy proved so successful in Oklahoma, Oregon, Washington, California and Texas.
Is this pretty much no change from yesterday?
What's our chances if FSU or others throw down and announce that they're $Cing?
Might they be afraid of Ben Finley's revenge?
LOL. I confess I had to look it up, but, yeah, he closed their overtime with a win.
I like our QB depth!
https://www.si.com/college/cal/news/2023-cal-qb-duel
"What I lack in experience
I make up in madness"
-Ben Finley
Word must have gotten out and they don't want any smoke. LOL
Anything other than joining one of the big 4 conferences will be a massive failure, and at this point that seems to be the most likely outcome. Feel terrible for the players, they couldn’t have anticipated this when committing to cal and I would be surprised if the majority weren’t thinking about transferring when the portal opens up next cycle.
Knowlton needs to be fired asap, although unfortunately it won’t change the programs outcome at this point as the damage is likely irreversible.
https://clutchpoints.com/pac-12s-remaining-4-schools-hire-andrew-lucks-dad-oliver-to-help-potentially-save-the-conference
This is definitely a good move. It's going to take luck to keep the PAC together.
I'm not sure if this good or bad.
There's a chance Pac4 remains to exist which is not good. We might have to work as a package of 4 and makes it harder to move than a package of just us and Furd.
But this guy is probably more capable than Knowlton and Christ.
IMO, it’s bad…
Sure it’s a step up in leadership, as Christ and Knowlton are bumbling f-ing idiots and Kliavkoff has already been bumped aside…unfortunately the bomb has already gone off and the time to have brought Luck in was in the last 12 months when you were still 10 teams. What TF is Luck going to advise them now, as all the options are bad.
Also, now being a package deal with OSU and Wazzu means joining the ACC/Big12/B1G are out…which means we’re a mid-major…which means the Athletic Department is dead…which means none of it really matters.
Agreed, Cal and Stanford might have a tiny amount of juice to a conference looking to get into the bay area market, adding Wash State and Oregon State to that doesn’t help.
Right.
Plus, it remains to be seen what other schools would even be joining the 4…you’re not getting any from the MWC anytime soon for that current exit fee…it’s likely a short term fix, because plenty have voiced concern that Stanford specifically, and maybe Cal, would leave for the B1G. The AAC is a wash with the MWC because the increased.
What is Kliavkoff doing right now? Is he working hard to save the conference? Or has he given up?
I don't want to stay in Pac12 so I absolutely don't care, but he's being paid a big money and just enjoying his break?
I want the conference saved if there's actually some sort of monetary/geographical benefit in it, but I don't want it to continue if Kliavkoff is retained, bottom line. His ouster with no severance should be the first requirement of any deal. (it won't be, but I can pretend.)
Remaining with OSU/Wazzu, while ostensibly noble and in all likelihood their only remaining move, puts us on the mid-major track and almost assuredly strips whatever remains of the Conference of any Group of 5 rights/status. The $$$, which already didn’t really fit even in the past few years of the P12, means you’re cutting multiple sports, reducing rosters, limiting schedules, etc.
While Kliavkoff is undoubtedly a boob, the leaders at USC, UCLA, Colorado, Oregon and Washington are all just as much to blame.
Heard various reports that the remaining schools have held meetings without him.
I wonder if he's lamenting his incompetence for causing what happened, or if he's just laughing that he doesn't have to do anything because he has no attachment to Pac12.
Look, I am no fan of Kliavkoff…I gave him a chance, considering the mess Larry Scott left him with. But like Rob Manfred, Kliavkoff really just works at the behest of his bosses, and they’re the ones that hired a guy with NO experience in college athletics for a second consecutive time…he didn’t unilaterally nix TV deals on his own.
He did get absolutely worked by Yormark…it’s just that there’s plenty of blame to go around…
Looking forward to a Michael Lewis or author of his ilk putting out a book on this.
Think bigger, a Ken Burns 10 part documentary to air on PBS in 2030.
With the biggest burn being that, on its premier, the documentary airing gets more viewership than the entire PAC 12 got for the last 15 years.
I’m looking forward to the board game made by some European that doesn’t know the first thing about the sport of football. Maybe part monopoly, part bidding like spades, and part prisoner’s dilemma game theory.
“Wait, you said you were staying but now you’re cashing out”?
“Sorry, I was secretly holding the opt-out at discount card”.
Or a 30/30 episode.
6 team mini conference: cal, ‘furd, Notre Dame, navy, army, Air Force,
Call it the leaders conference. It solves so many issues by going in a different direction than the rest of the power 4
doesn't klia-wtf-off come from service academies?
this might just be a task he could handle...yeah, right who am i kidding.
Knowlton was AF Academy.
Are you referring to conference idea proposed in this article from ON3?
https://www.on3.com/news/notre-dame-could-fix-cal-and-stanfords-conference-problem-but-wont/
Ironman, you're sunshine pumping is overwhelming. You and Taco, nothing but glass half full. LOL
I would pay to see any Cal game.
As suspected, Fox brought in new money to cover UW and Oregon, albeit at a discount.
https://awfulannouncing.com/college-football/ohio-state-gene-smith-fox-oregon-washington-big-ten.html
This is our only chance of an ACC bid, which looks like it’s on life support.
any validity to OSU & WSU to Big12
where did you see this?
Hard to believe they'd prefer OSU/WSU to us and Stanford, unless we told them up front that we weren't interested. Which would be stupid and completely unsurprising.
There are reports/rumors that Stanford did tell them that. Not sure about Cal.
I think Cal joining the ACC would be crazy, Cal likely wouldn’t get a full media revenue share for quite some time. They also would be locked into a grant of right agreement for 12 years, so if things go bad they won’t be able to exit.
I’ll reiterate that they should immediately take SMU, Rice and even try for Texas-San Antonio and perhaps New Mexico State then next summer figure out which Mountain West schools want to leave when the exit fee is only 17 million.
the problem is that whatever league we can cobble together woudl be a mid-major with mid-major media rights. The MWC is in the $5m range, teh AAC is $7m. And those numbers are far, far below what we need to maintain 30 sports and payoff CMS.
It doesn’t have to be if those schools compete. Boise State was able to compete in 2008 Appalachian State has been able to consistently compete since they beat Michigan. It’s about whoever is the conference is representative in the college football playoff to do well in playing the big 10 & big 12 schools. Start winning those games and all of the sudden you start getting better players and you re-emerge as as power conference.
you are missing the point. Unless the Regents/taxpyaers are gonna bail us out, we will not survive long enough on mid-major pay to emerge as a power conference team. Teh MWC payout would not even cover Wilcox' salary
What OC said... neither the MWC nor AAC payments would cover the mortgage on Memorial. Players would have to use their NIL money to travel to games, wash their uniforms...
Make it like varsity baseball and have one (or more) team mom wash all the uniform tops.
I’d rather the program have an honorable death then join the MWC.
You want Cal athletics to die and then join MWC?
I guess there would be some appeal if you told me Cal football would be a powerhouse in the Mountain West, like a mid 2000’s Boise state but once 80 percent of the athletic departments funding disappears I suspect we’d find equilibrium as an average to below average MWC conference team trying to scratch out six or seven wins so we can play in the New Mexico Bowl and call our season a success.
As an alum and a fan that has zero appeal to me, none.
We wouldn’t be a powerhouse in the Mountain West, though. Everything takes a hit.
No, I was pointing to your word choice of "then"
Exactly. The Mountain West does not help. The AAC does not help. If you lose Power 5 status, you lose the Department. That simple.
Apologies if this has been referenced previously, but Cal had more average viewers per football game in 2022 than North Carolina, Syracuse, Georgia Tech, Wake Forest, Louisville, Boston College, MIAMI, Virginia Tech, Virginia and Duke.
Stanford averaged more viewers than all of those same schools except for UNC.
Market size matters.
https://medium.com/run-it-back-with-zach/which-college-football-programs-were-the-most-watched-in-2022-94eca4f6acbd
How much does it matter though? WSU had more than Cal and several others.
And when you consider that Pac-12 Network games counted as zero in this ranking, our real numbers must be higher. (Yeah, I know the P12 Network viewership probably sucked, but it was more than ZERO.)
Is there a way to get access to the PAC 12 numbers?
"Plenty of scenarios..." At this point and time it seems like there is only one, no?
It's just a question of how big of and whose bitch we're gonna' be.
Or, we're turned out, too old for tricks.
Any chance the MWC could break or renegotiate their media contract if they take the remaining Pac-4...maybe with an SMU on top? Honestly rather play those teams as opposed to the AAC (if the ACC route goes poof).
Apparently there are enough MWC schools that are just fine with their deal and have no interest in bolting.
My guess is schools who want to leave don't want to dilute conference votes. Just don't let us vote until we're full members.
ACC wise, It’s the 4 schools that want OUT that are No’s to the addition of the CA schools. Florida State/Clemson (SEC-bound??) and UNC/UVA (B1G bound??).
What if we ask SMU if they can subsidize our lunch? We get the subsidy we need and they buy themselves into the big boys table?
Does anyone know if the departing PAC schools get a payout from the playoff? What if $C wins the natty this year? Does the revenue belong to the remaining PAC 4 schools?
I have seen a lot of numbers thrown around, but not sure any of them have been confirmed as legitimate. Some say that PAC-12 has a $100M emergency fund. I have even seen $400M thrown around (I think that includes money that is owed to the other teams, but that we could potentially try and hang onto with the help of some lawyers). The flip side is we also had that Comcast overpayment issue. I read that reimbursement is coming directly out of the individual schools shares so the overpayment issue may not be a huge deal. But to be clear, this is all just sourced from random internet comments. It is hard to know how much truth is there. I think the range of possibilities include the PAC-12 being flush with cash to being heavily in the red. Would be nice to know where things stand, and hopefully our AD's have that info.
Regardless, If we can shake out $400M in loose change from the PAC-12 couch cushions, that could dramatically change the outlook of revitalizing the PAC-12. One of the biggest roadblocks right now is the lack of "free agents", almost all teams are locked into a conference deal that requires a hefty buyout to exit. And from my understanding, we need to get to 8 teams to have a viable conference. If we can dangle some cash in front of a few teams, or maybe a loan, we might be able to pry a few teams loose to join us. Alternatively, we apply for an exception from the NCAA and we use the cash to shore up the individual teams budgets while we wait for the some teams to become free agents in the next year or two.
EDIT: I also like the idea of getting SMU involved, simply for the fact that money does not matter to them at all. If we can convince them to forfeit their share of any media deal that appears, in exchange we could use that money to help with buyouts. While I would prefer to try and keep PAC-12 mostly on the west coast, some CA/Texas rivalries could generate some fan interest.
Let's just dissolve Pac12 and split $400 million among us 4 remaining faithful schools.
"[F]aithful" or left behind? LOL
Bearing in mind, if we had/have the right offer from B!G or ACC, we, too, are bolting.
That's why Pac12 needs to dissolve right now before we bolt!
I may be mistaken but I think we only need to have 6 teams to remain a viable power conference. It sounds like the only thing that is certain at this point is that we owe Comcast 50 mil. for over payments. I have not heard of a PAC 12 emergency fund with numbers as high as you have mentioned. Wilner wrote an article a few years back about a PAC 12 emergency fund which he said stood at about 20mil at the time. (I will link it below) If this is the case we may very well be in the red.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/04/01/pac-12-sitting-on-a-pile-of-emergency-cash-but-this-might-not-be-the-best-time-to-use-it/
EDIT: SMU could be our new Phil Knight in a reconfigured PAC and bring the capital we so desperately need.
The number of holdouts must be small, or else they probably would have declared this over already. So yeah, there is still hope.
If the deal does go through, should we credit Christ and Knowlton?
My hope is that the 4 schools are really saying “what are you going to give us to say yes” rather that being absolutely against us joining.
Yeah, lots of possible manuerings and head games ongoing, here. It ain't over 'til we're in the MWC.
It's like some no trade clauses. You have to give me something to be traded to your team.
No, I would probably credit the Stanford people and the Notre Dame people, in that order.
If that's true and it works I will change my name to something negative about U$C and I will spell Stanfurd with an "o". Honestly never felt this must solidarity with Stanfurd before...but strange things happen when you are stranded at sea in a small boat. Then again, I still don't trust them: they could decide to go independent and live us hanging (which would be understandable but unfortunate).
I think we spend way more time focused on our rivalry than do most Furdies. I guess a lifeboat works because neither of us can eat the other to survive. Otherwise, we'd be slicing up a nice big tree and with our Axe, of course.
It's probably the schools that would be paired with the west coast schools that are holding out.
The ones who seem ready to bolt the conference as soon as they can are almost certainly holding out. That would be Clemson and FSU for sure, then maybe Miami, UNC, VaTech, Virginia. Hard to say which.
I saw one rumor-monger guy on Twitter claim that NC State and VaTech are the two holdouts most likely to flip, but if the vote is close then I am surprised if NC State is in that group.
Isn't there a deadline at the end of this month for when they could exit? (and pay 150 million) Assuming Clemson and FSU manage to figure out the financials and exit the conference, do the remaining schools immediately try to bring in the PAC?
That might happen. But it also seems like it'll be very difficult for those two schools to scare up enough money to get out.
Aug 15 deadline for any ACC school to notify the conference in writing that it is planning to leave in the next year.
https://theathletic.com/4744003/2023/08/02/florida-state-acc-realignment/
Me too. NC State would be in a pickle if the ACC goes bust; I don't see the SEC ever picking them up.